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Changes to the way I release versions? (read the thread)

63% 63% [ 5 ]
38% 38% [ 3 ]

Total Votes : 8

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Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

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Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by DarkWanderer on Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:27 pm

Ok so, I'm Asking for feedback on a possible change to the stat bonus skill I thought of. Since we're going to be removing the useless stat bonus icon (you will still get the stat bonus even if the icon does not show) and replacing it with a custom skill the player will be able to choose if they have the required stats to do so; I thought of this system to go along with it.

What I'm proposing is to give players a total number of stat points to choose from when they take the skill and allow them to pick which stats they put these points into.
So far I'm thinking it would either give 6 bonus stats to choose from and have a +3 cap on how many points you can put into one ability or giving 4 stat points to choose from and having no cap.

My thoughts are that since this has been done for very popular commercial games (Fallout Series, DnD games, and almost all rpgs) many times and has been proven to work it would be a good addition to the map. However, I know wc3 has a different game system so some balancing issues may have to be fixed.

I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this guys. I know I labeled this a poll, but I'd really like actual written feedback, not just a yes or no answer.
If you think it's a bad idea or a good idea, please say why. Also, if you think it could work with some changes, please do tell.

Anyway, I thought of this because I'd like to see the game become less linear and item based, allowing more customization options for players. Wouldn't building a good character give a better feeling than just buying the right items?

Code:

Current Poll Results:

Yes: 3 (Myself, Alanine, Fromundaman)
Yes but with changes: 0
No: 0
Still Undecided: 1 (Grasshopper :P)


Last edited by DarkWanderer on Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:46 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by Glycine on Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:50 pm

I actually like this idea a lot, as it makes heroes instantly more customizable.

Need a casting tank? No problem. Want to make your mage live a bit longer? Why not?

I support the first option [6 bonus stats + a Cap], although the implementation of it might be tricky.

I know in other Warcraft III Custom games, stats are usually placed in the lumber column and people can go to shops and up their stats there, but since we have glory as lumber, could it perhaps be placed into income?
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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by DarkWanderer on Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:31 am

Thanks very much for your reply Alanine.

I was also leaning towards the 6 bonus stats with a cap option.

The implementation of this would be no problem. Either Hopper or myself could code this in a few minutes (not trying to brag here lol) . It's actually just a matter of using global variables for each player (an array variable) to track the 6 stat points and how much is put into each stat (to maintain the +4 stat per ability cap)

-Edit
Since this is a poll, I'm going to keep the results updated at the opening post.

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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by Fromundaman on Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:58 am

If this is implemented, then having it be 6 points + cap would be the best idea to avoid it being abused. HOWEVER, this is kind of a global hero nerf, since that skill has been giving 9 stat points, equally distributed between the 3 skills.

Personally, I'm not sold on the idea...
At first glance, it looked like it offered customization, but when I look closer, it seems more like a global hero nerf, meaning stats won't get as high (they're already not *too* high anyway), meaning we'll need items to compensate. On top of that, characters with skills that do damage based on a certain stat (Shadow Hunter, Far Seer in the near future, Psycher in the near future, etc.) become forced to put half their stat points into that stat, then only have 3 points to split between the other two.


I am an idiot, and shouldn't post when only half awake.


Last edited by Fromundaman on Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by Grass Hopper on Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:08 pm

umm, the stats skill givse +2 to all stats, so the numbers are the same

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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by Fromundaman on Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:14 pm

*D'oh* Epic fail. Not sure why I was thinking +3 per stat for a second.

In that case, I guess it sounds good.

Still a cap of 10 stat increases, right?
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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by DarkWanderer on Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:45 pm

Lol, I do the same type of things when I post and I'm too tired.

In that case, I guess it sounds good.
Thanks for your thoughts on this Fromundaman; I'll add you to the yes votes then.

Still a cap of 10 stat increases, right?
And yes, that would stay the same as it is now.

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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by Grass Hopper on Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:45 pm

but instead of getting +20 all stats, u could now go anywhere from +20 to all, to +30 to two

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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by Fromundaman on Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:37 am

Meh, to me, it seems like more work coding than it's worth, since it doesn't make that big of a difference. However, it does allow a small amount of customization, and the appearance of a lot more customization than it actually gives, so you might as well throw it in there. TBH there are only a handful of heroes that I see this actually having a visible effect on.
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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by DarkWanderer on Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:00 am

Meh, to me, it seems like more work coding than it's worth, since it doesn't make that big of a difference.
Trust me, the coding would only take a few minutes, and I wouldn't mind doing the little coding required.

True, that's why I don't think it could cause any actual problems.


However, it does allow a small amount of customization, and the appearance of a lot more customization than it actually gives, so you might as well throw it in there.
Yep you're right; it does look better than it actually is, but isn't that fine if we're the only ones that know that. Razz. If it works, we can always change the system around a bit to allow for more customization.

TBH there are only a handful of heroes that I see this actually having a visible effect on.
That would probably be true if you only take into account the stat bonus by itself, but I'd like to use this system to complement the player choosable skills; Since they have stat requirements.

Anyway, Grasshopper has said that the best thing to do would be try this on one hero at a time and see if it works. If it goes well, we can add it to the other heroes, and if it flops we can just make the necessary changes to make it work or skip using stat requirements for the pickable custom skills.

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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by Fromundaman on Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:17 pm

Okay, you've convinced me. Sounds good.
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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:48 pm

also: +10 stats is 200 hp, or 150 mana, or 1.3 armor and 10% attackspeed, and 10 damage... for basically free... thats like a free low level item

im warming up to the idea now wanderer Razz but i would really rather test-run it on one hero before it gets properly implemented...
if anyone knows who fabius bile is... i think he'd make a *perfect* test hero for customizable skills/stats

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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by DarkWanderer on Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:29 pm

I'm glad to hear you're more willing to try it out now. I'll start developing the whole system after my item system , which is about 95% done, is finished and switch is debugged.

I'm not sure who fabius bile is; I'll google him.

I'll also develop two skills for each highest stat to start; one passive and one active. So, it will be 6 skills total to pick from. However, you guys might need to balance them a bit for me since I'm not very good at that.

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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:02 pm

fabius bile is a chaos hero that basically dabbles in mutating his own troops to make them stronger, he has a variable stat profile when he comes into play, and he can make a bunch of 'mutated' marines, that have randomly boosted stats, but sometimes have negatives. hes a very modular character, which i think fits the customization offered by the proposed systems Razz

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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by DarkWanderer on Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:54 pm

FOR CHAOS! That hero sounds like he would be incredibly fun to play. We definitely have to add him. And you're right; from the sound of it hes the perfect candidate for testing the system out.

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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by 13loodRaven on Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:58 pm

Truly, almost sounds as fun as WarpHead Razz
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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by -Insert Comment- on Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:37 pm

This seems like a fine thing.

One question: Would the innate abilities of each hero now upgrade for every 2 stat points that are increased (no matter which 2 are chosen)?

I'm just thinking out loud here, but what if the innate abilities are affected by which type(s) of stats you choose to upgrade?

You could provide different effects for different attributes, which could provide interesting customization for each character.

Making up a simple example, Fabius Bile's innate ability could be:





Obviously this is something I just came up with to provide a point. Don't concern yourself with whether this is balanced or not, or even in consideration as an actual ability. The point I'm trying to make is that you can significantly customize how your hero can behave by using the stats bonuses.

Note that in this case, since I'm assuming you will be using the 6 points with a cap of 3, the ability provides additional bonuses if a certain stat is maxed out. This is to encourage a specific concentration, rather than a general concentration spread out among the three stats.

Obviously this requires more code work, and possibly a whole round of balancing and testing all its own, but it's something that I thought might be interesting, even if it were only on one character.
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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:42 pm

i would *love* to do this, but it ends up being way more complication that people need. alot of people already complain about the size of the tooltips, now image what they would do if their innates were 3x the size... personally, if it werent for the people actually playing the map, i would do this. even if it takes *tones* more effort to code Razz (ok thats another reason why im slightly against it XD)

edit: and i completly forgot, no its still every 2 levels of the stats skill u take, no matter what combination of points u add

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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by DarkWanderer on Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:52 am

I have to agree with Hopper on this one. It's a good, original idea; don't get me wrong, but it would be too complicated for your average player. (we can't even get people to type -ok to balance the teams)

Right now we're going to start with the core system (custom skills that you can choose if you meet the stat requirements for them) and see how well it works out for one hero (Fabius). If it goes as well as I think it will, we will incorporate the system with every hero.

-ot
On another note, I think some of the tooltips are just too long. Imo, they block too much of the screen, making it difficult to play. Also, for new players, this makes it hard to find the info they need about abilities quickly in combat situations. Maybe we could make only the most important information show by default and have an option to read the other info. (like with leaderboards)

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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by Fromundaman on Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:32 pm

Any chance that down the road, if/when the map gets popular and we get enough of a following that people know how to perform most of the functions this game requires (like typing -ok... *facepalm*), that we could either attempt to incorporate that, or have a game mode that incorporates that?

The thing is, I REALLY like that idea, but it does sound tough to code, and you're right, it would be too complex for the average player of our map, a portion of whom can't figure out how to work recipes (which can be attributed to being new to the map style I guess) or how to read the instructions teammates or the game provides them (which can be attributed to Mongoloid syndrome...).
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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by -Insert Comment- on Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:50 pm

I actually also agree with the tooltips. Though there is that side of me that wants to indulge in the 40k background of a character, I think there's just a bit too much description of what a hero or spell is, instead of what it does.
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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by Fromundaman on Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:56 pm

I'm sorry, I need to take a moment away from this conversation to say that -Insert Comment-'s avatar is just amazing.

Oh, and I agree with his comment, though I'll be sad to see that background info on the characters go...
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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:50 pm

well, all the info is in the first part, then the actual effects are in the second... i could theoretically split them up a bit more, but in the end, there just as long. i too want to keep the fluff side of the descriptions

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
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Re: Poll (Changing the Stat bonus Skill a bit)

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