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[Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

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[Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:19 am

ok, so we've hammered out a build for this guy (finally) XD

story:
rawr

stats:
strength: 25 + 2.0
agility: 24 + 2.2
intelligence: 16 + 1.9

movespeed: 305
range: 500



innate: BLood Brothers
"Farsight and his enclave are sword to each other, and will protect, defend, and support each other to the bitter end. Witnessing Farsight in battle spurs them on to greater acts of heroism, while, in face of his demise, they fight harder than ever before."
gives 1/1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5 armor, 10/12/14/16/18/20% damage, and 2/3/4/5/6/7% movespeed.
bonuses increase by 5% for each 10% missing hp


Plasma Assault
"Farsight actives his suit's jet pack and flies towards his enemies, raining death on them from his Plasma Rifle."
jumps to target location
deals 100/140/180/220 damage to enemies in the target aoe
manacost: 60/70/80/90, range: 700/800/900/1000, cooldown: 20/17/14/11, aoe: 300
note: icon will be recolored



Crushing Arc
"Using his Battlesuit to draw additional power into his sword, Farsight swings his Dawn Blade in a destructive arc of crackling energy infront of him, obliterating his enemies."
knocks back and deals 75/125/170/225 + 1.25xStr damage too all enemies in front of Farsight



Dawn Blade
"The dawn blade is an alien artefact that O'Shova gained on the dead world of Arthas Moloch. Its sculpted surface flickers with unknown energies that paint glittering arcs of destruction as it is swung."
when toggled on, Farsight fights in melee.
He destroys 15/20/25/30% magic resistance with each strike.
Deals 4 damage per point of resistance destroyed, replacing normal attack damage.
Has no effect on enemies already affected by this skill.
cooldown: 4 seconds (to swap between modes), duration: 8 seconds



Ult: Strike the Killing Blow
"when the time is right, Commander Farsight can signal his elite bodyguard of Battlesuits for a coordinated strike on all key targets on the battlefield, often ending the battle in one decisive strike."
summons on Battlesuit next to each enemy hero on the map.
As the battlesuits approach, the fire a salvo of seeker missles at their target, dealing 225/300/375 damage.

Combat: 40-67 + 0/10/20 damage, 500 range, 1.8 attack cooldown
Defense: 700 + 0/250/500 hp, 2 + 0/2/4 heavy armor, 320 movespeed.
(ability)Fusion Gun: deals 1.5/1.75/2x damage to buildings at 200 range
(ability)Flamer: Attacks deal 20 dps for 5 seconds
(ability)Jet Pack: jumps 500/700/900 range
(ability)Shield Generator: blocks 50% of damage, 2 mana per damage.
Suit Model


model for Farsight (possibly...)
or this model because it looks vaguely similar and has a gun and sword animation
model for ultimate's missles





FUCK FUCK FUCK. lost this entire post -.-
as well as icons and models.
FUCK

repaired as much as i could remeber


Last edited by Grass Hopper on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:28 pm; edited 33 times in total

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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Glycine on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:38 pm

Uhhhh, stat gains are not optimal Razz

Didn't we say he was going to be a strength hero with a high agility gain?

stats:
strength: 25 + 1.9
agility: 24 + 2.1
intelligence: 16 + 2.1

Could those work?

Also, Plasma Assault/Rush/whatever we decide to call it seems to be underpowered. Even Celestine's move does in the mid 200's and it still slows by a percentage for a long duration. Autarch's does 280 and has a major bonus with it, so this skill needs to be powered up, in my opinion.

Crushing Arc also seems underpowered, especially since strength bonuses from items are getting halved. What is the knockback distance? The skill itself acts in an AoE of 300 in front of Farsight, right?

As for the ult. Are the missiles homing or do they bombard an AoE around the target? How do you compensate for runners, who can simply outrun the vast majority of damage? Should it be homing and once it hits affect an AoE around the hero?
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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:06 pm

yeah, i forgot about the stats XD ill change them
plasma assault ahs a 9 second cooldown, and farther range than most jump skills. (i might lower the cooldown still - cause it is essnetially a blink (which usually have 4-6 second cooldowns))

at 100 str, arc will be doing 240 aoe damage... ok point taken, ill buff the str damage a little (also keeping in mind he has 4 nukes in his skillset)
and the knockback is 300 range, the aoe will by 270 infront of him. and the knockback might be increased a little

and for the ult, its all targeted damage, no aoe. (althought that might change)

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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Glycine on Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:24 pm

For a ganker though, his skills seem to be very weak. ._.

Just my observation, as late game, all he'll depend on is Dawn Blade to armor nuke and then just auto-attack. Blink's really good and all, but he doesn't really have a good source of damage early-mid game since he's very mana dependent and heroes can regen 200 damage in about 50 seconds.
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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:45 pm

the main point of gankers is to kill heroes earlygame and prevent them from having a favorable late game, and most gankers dont need to excel late game as their job is mostly done in the early-mid game, tending to turn to the supportive route

so lets mathcraft him as a ganker, looking at burst damage, and spell dps.
burst:
220 + 160 + 1.25xstr + 550(assuming foe has 11 armor) + 520(ult)
assuming level 16 with 50 str, thats 1512 damage
*superb* burst damage - excellent ganker, matching the likes of the autarch (also including a blink, a pseudo disable from knockback, and causing the foe to have 0 or negative armor, and a powerful summon)

now for dps:
blink: 220/6 = 37
arc: 238/17 = 14
dawn: 550/8 = 68
ult: 520/120 = 4
total dps if he spams his spells at all times: 123
thats about the same as some low-end carries at mid-late game.

also, allowing for the fact that hes an awesome pusher with just 2 heroes in your lane, has areguably the best skill in the game: blink, and can completly remove a targets phys damage reduction, as well as a certain ammount of enemy-positioning-control with knockback... i think hes a very solid, if not imba, hero

(but this is all math and theory crafting... we wont know for sure till his in... but he is by no means weak)

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Heroes:
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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Glycine on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:47 pm

*headshot, falls to the ground in a pool of blood*
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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Fromundaman on Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:40 pm

Looks good. I expect numbers will need tweaking, but we'll figure that out when we get there.

Also, is Plasma assault a 'target unit' spell that hits people in an AoE, or a 'target area' spell.

If the latter, it doesn't exactly fit the 'assault' theme quite as well Razz
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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:17 pm

target area, and you can assualt a group Razz

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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Fromundaman on Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:47 am

Hmmm... I know I'll be using it more to blink out of danger myself...
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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:25 pm

eh, u can still assault nothing >.>

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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Fromundaman on Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:21 am

I dunno how that works, but sure Very Happy

As long as you're cool with it, I don't mind.
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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:44 pm

ok, so if no one comments XD im gona move this to complete inna bit

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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Glycine on Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:36 pm

Looks good to me. ^^
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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:29 pm

ok, ive started working on this guy (triggering at school when i have time)
ive also updated with icons and some models

i would appriciate it if ppl looked over this again

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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Son007 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:03 pm

I did and here are some things Ill comment on.

For his innate: Does the armor also increase by 5% for each 10% missing. Does the increase add like this: 20%+5% = 25% or 20%+5%=21%?

Plasma Assault is fine. 220 + 1000 range blink is fine, plus a low mana cost and low cd would equal a great escape/catch up to. Does it need a target or will it work like normal blink?

What type of skill is Crushing Arc? Is it a passive or an active with a cd? You could, instead of knock back, give it a stun of like 0.75/1.0/1.25/1.5, but then if it is an active you should give it a cd of like 20 were as it could be around 15 normally.

Maybe for Dawn Blade you could make it a close range nuke for people who get to close? Something that deals like 50/100/150/200 and destroys 3/5/7/9 armor and your attacks deal an extra 12/24/36/48 damage for 3/4/5/6 seconds. Range of 300. Cd of like 18/17/16/15, mana cost of like 75/95/115/135.

Strike the Killing Blow sounds nice but could you edit with some cd, mana cost, duration of summons please? You should increase the movement speed of the summons as the ult is leveled, 320/340/360, just so it can keep up with people. How long does it take the battle suit to catch up to their targets?

Thats it for now, might be more after your post there Grasshopper.
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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:16 pm

Umm. Its 5% of the bonuses. Not +5%
So yes, it will be like 20% + 5% = 21
And for armor, it maxes somewhere around 7?

Plasma assault functions like a normal blink. So its aoe target.

Arc is an active. Think of it as a warstomp
And ill get some cooldown and mama etc when I can

Dawn blade is a toggle mostly cause it shouldn't be a target nuke Razz its designed to be a combat mode, cause he is supposed to favor melee combat.
And right now it does work a lot like a nuke.

Ult: I'm not sure they need it cause they have a blink skill. But I can if it turns out they do.
Also CD would be something around 160, manacost from 250 to 450. And I don't know if ill give them a durarion. Of they need one, they'll last 120 seconds

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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:20 am

mathcrafting!
edit: i know im biased, cause im not seeing a lot of change needed here... ive identified some potential problem numbers in the total burst damage.
i would appriciate it if people commented on how to fix this, if its needed /edit



innate:
at max bonus (10% remaining - 9 stacks)
+.9/1.1/1.3/1.5/1.8/2 armor
+4/5/6/7/8/9% damage
+0/1/1/2/2/3% movespeed

max possible bonuses of:
2.9/3.6/4.3/5/5.8/6.5 armor
14/17/20/23/26/29% damage
2/4/5/7/9/10% movespeed

i like the armor bonuses the least... but i cant lower the values much more... cause .1 armor is the lowest interval possible
i might change it to 1/1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5 armor.


skill 1:
im asuming that 220 damage every 11 seconds is ok... maby the manacost is a bit low, but it is just a blink skill with damage.
the range might be the real issue, but i dont think itll be a huge problem


skill 2:
level 1 - 25 strength
106 damage

level 7 - 35 strength
269 damage

level 16 - 42 strength
278 damage

level 25 - 65 strength
306 damage

level 25 (stats) - 85 strength
332 damage

assuming 120 strength
375 damage


skill 3:
this is the problem skill
max damage possible is 550 damage, which is immense. but hopefully balanced by the fact that it cant hurt someone twice, and he loses his regular attack damage


ult:
on a hero without boots, running away, assume 8 seconds of attacking.
(average of 53/63/73 damage per attack, with a 1.3s cd, dps is 41/48/56, add 8+5 seconds of flamer at 20 dps, so 260 flame damage, and 328/504/584 damage redued by armor from regular attacks)

on a hero with boots, running away, assume 3 attacks before hero outruns suit.
(3 attacks take 3.9(4) seconds, so 4 + 5 seconds of flame => 180 flame damage, 3 attacks is 159/189/219 damage reduced by armor from regular attacks)

total ult damage:
375 + 260 + 328 => 963
450 + 260 + 504 => 1214
525 + 260 + 585 => 1370
(note, initial and suit damage is physical)

so: increase attack cooldown on suits, and reduce basic ult damage
(attack cd => 1.8, damage => 225/300/375)

total burst damage
at level 1 (arc): 106
at level 1 (plasma): 100
at level 1 (blade): 250

at level 7 (ult + arc*4 + plasma*2) : 634
at level 7 (ult + arc*4 + blade*2) : 844 <-
at level 7 (ult + arc*4 + blade + plasma): 844 <-
at level 7 (ult + plasma*4 + arc*2) : 613
at level 7 (ult + plasma*4 + blade*2) : 795 <-
at level 7 (ult + plasma*4 + blade + arc): 813 <-

at level 11 (ult*2 + arc*4 + plasma*4 + blade): 1047 <-

at level 16 (ult*3 + arc*4 + plasma*4 + blade*4):1423 <-

level 25 (120 str): 1520

arrows denote "problem values" (ie, greater than a naked o'shova's max hp)

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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Glycine on Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:12 pm

Hmm, this is exactly what I wanted to see. Because these calculations have been done, we can tell exactly where the problem areas lie and move to correct them now, rather than after we figure out that a 550 damage nuke is a problem.

Innate: Perhaps we could lower the armor and increase the movement speed bonuses?

With 1/1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5 armor and 2/4/6/8/10/12% movement speed, you'd get out, with 9 stacks:

1.45/2.18/2.9/3.63/4.35/5.08 armor and 2.9/5.8/8.7/11.6/14.5/17.4% movement speed.

17.4% ms, applied to a base 300 speed hero, is 352.2 ms, compared to 330 at 10% ms.

Assault: This will just need minor alterations depending on in-game performance, but nothing game breaking.

Arc: A powerful nuke late game and isn't game-breaking early, so looks good.

Dawn Blade: This needs the most rethinking. Is it really necessary to give another nuke to a hero who already has plenty of them? Perhaps it would be wise to attach a passive effect on Dawn Blade alone. What could it be?

A few ideas:

- On attack, he removes x armor up to a certain limit. The most vanilla idea.

- One of my old ideas was to give him a toggle, between melee and range, but that's not likely given the circumstances.

- How about a destruction of magic resistance per attack, if possible? Or an aura, perhaps?

And the ult:

A lot of damage. Almost too much. oo That said, if we remove one of the nukes, the damage should be somewhat bearable. Actually, do we need more summons? ._.
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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:48 am

why does the ms boost need increasing? >.>


as to dawn blade, it already is a melee mode btw Razz

anywho.
one option is to reduce the damage on all his other nukes to compensate for having 4, but that doesnt seem right >.>
another option is to cut the damage done by dawn blade (to like 15-30)

the thing about dawn blade is that its a mode with a cooldown, meaing once your in melee, you cant switch back to ranged for a bit.
its damage comes from a melee attack, which given certain circumstances, is much harder to do than most targeted nukes

its also limited by the enemies stats. if they have less than 11 armor, it wont do full damage.

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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Glycine on Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:38 pm

Grass, the cooldown doesn't exactly manner when you have a long ranged jump. If any hero is at 50% health, O'shovah will just jump in with assault and dawn blade to start the combo, then crushing arc to knockback, finally finishing off the hero with the ult, not to mention another jump.

And even if you cut it, you either make it useless or OP. 165 damage is nothing, especially if you can't attack out of it for 4 seconds. On the contrary, 330 damage is a lot for a 4 second nuke, a la current Yriel (who is awful, by the way).

I think the concept needs to be changed for dawn blade, because it's impractical to give him 4 nukes. Silences will basically neuter him to the level of fail, especially Libby's. If we have enough trouble already trying to cast any spell with Libby around, how do you expect O'shovah to cast all 4 of his? xD

I think something to do with magic resistance would be best for the dawn blade, because Pathfinder already does regular armor with Markerlight.

And for the ult, can we think of something more productive than summons? I don't like putting them in unless warranted, and while this is a better situation than most for them, I don't quite like the way it was implemented. They're his bodyguard, not his orbital nukes. >>
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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:45 pm

dawn blade currently is melee mode with an -armor nuke on attack. the damage works once, and it wont reduce below 0
(its armor because the rest of his skills (with the possible exception of arc) deal physical damage)

reducing armor works better in his skillset than magic resist does, and it also helps out his allies a ton as well (attacks more more prominant than nukes)

i can lower the damage to 10, and not remove his regular attack damage once they have the -armor.
it gives him the slight disadvantage of being forced into melee, but it doesnt screw him over once hes there, and it doesnt become a ridiculous 550 damage nuke, instead caping at 110.
it goes from the biggest nuke in his arsonal to the minor one, only there for its other effects (which make his other nukes stronger)

and libby ends up being a counter to farsight Razz its ok to ahve counter heroes. (keep in mind that only comboing right next to libby will screw you over, 3 of his skills can be activated outside the hood's range)



as to the ult, i could ditch the summons, and just ahve missles from no where.
but the summons provide other uses to farsight than just nukes, and make the skill just a bit more interesting than generic global nuke

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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Glycine on Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:21 pm

Grass, the Dawn Blade is what makes O'Shovah special. Without it, he's just a normal commander who decided to go renegade. And it shouldn't lock him into melee, where he's liable to get mauled by any dedicated melee hero (See Kharn for details).

Reducing magic resistance is a lot more powerful than reducing armor, because while attacks are more prevalent, you can't increase your magic resistance beyond 50% for most heroes, while armor can go up to the high 20's for the heavy tanks or even into the 30's under the right conditions. Those heavy tanks will have lots of health, which is a natural counter to nukes and O'shovah's armor nuke will hardly scratch them. Keep in mind 17 armor is equal to 50% armor reduction.

And having spells do physical damage is awful for him, because his armor nuke won't do enough to actually help him.

If you nuke a 25 armor hero down to 14, you gain almost exactly a 15% boost in damage. If you nuke a 15 armor down to 4, you gain almost a 30% boost in damage. What this means is that dawn blade will only be effective against heroes who already have low armor values and not against heroes who have the high armor values it was designed to defeat in the first place.


And for the ult, they're his bodyguard, not some suicide strike force. Any self-respecting hero late game could easily wear down and kill one of them.

Please diversify him. I don't want him to play as another Fuegan, he deserves better than that. Because he basically is a copy of Fuegan at this point, with slight modifications. I know you imagined him as a nuker, but I don't quite agree with him as such, if you remember my initial opposition to it. He should practically be one of the only tankish characters for the Tau, yet he plays nothing like one.

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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:48 pm

his spells need to do physical damage or its likely they will lag the game. (and mini stun on each hit)

i dont often see heroes with more than 15-20 armor.
if its an issue, it can remove all armor?

and you cant say its aweful for him... because up to mid game, his dawn blade will remove all armor, because not many heroes have more than 11 armor by that time.

being locked into melee for 3-5 seconds is a counterbalance for the extreme power of reducing someones armor by 11.
3-5 seconds isnt that long a time either. specially if you turn on sword, jump in, attack, and then arc. By that time you should be able to switch back.
anyway, its not like hes completly helpess... he has a blink and a knockback, and he still deals his damage.
and melee heroes will get in melee range anyway.

and i can force order the suits to move within 1k of o'shova then, itll act more like a bodyguard then, and itll eliminate their extreme damage on far targets

and take another look at the stats on the suits >.> itll take a long time to wear them out.



atm he fits the theme/role/whatever of a front line commander.
hes got initiation (blink+arc), the aura, summons, and an ability that allows teams to focus down a target.
i can remove the damage on the blink and the blade, and increase the damage on arc a bit to compensate, and he is no longer a dedicated nuker, but plays exactly the same.



EDIT:
just a few things that bother me about this Razz
this skill build has been up for god knows how long, and you initially said that it was good. why the sudden change of heart?
the skill build that, originally, you (and techwolf?) posted included: the aura, the jet pack, the dawn blade, and the summon. The only thing different was Arc, and i added damage to his skills. So its not even that different from what you originally thought it should be

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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Glycine on Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:19 pm

For one, I question why spells could be coded in such a way as to lag the game a la Warboss.

The power of being able to reduce anyone's armor by 5 from anywhere and grant vision on that unit is nearly as good as Dawn Blade (But with no drawbacks), but I don't see why his skills have to be quite as redundant.

Compared to Shadowsun's jump, with lower cooldown and lack of interrupting ability, Farsight's jump just seems like we took Pathfinder's AoE skill, stripped the effects from it, and made it activate on jump.

In the late game, 3-5 seconds of being locked into melee range is enough to kill or severely cripple a hero. Mid-game, he'll be like Fuegan was, without the tankishness. Sure, he'll be able to gank early, but how about late? He becomes dependent on other heroes to make use of his abilities because he lacks any DPS ability whatsoever.

What good is initiation when you're not a DPS hero? You lack stuns and disables as well as any stabilized damage potential. If you remove the damage from blade and blink, you've taken away a lot of his damage and almost fatally changed him to the role of a Commissar. He can do his damage, yes, but what does he have to augment that damage besides armor crush? A little innate buff that works better as he dies, which is relatively ineffective because he has no ability to tank things besides getting armor.

My change of heart came after you mathcrafted, because one, he became a nuker when he obviously shouldn't be, and two, his skills became uninspiring and bland. Basically, in his current version, all he'll do is run around with DPS heroes as a support or serve as a pusher through his summons and aura.

And Farsight is NOT a Commissar or Cato, despite the fact he is designed as such.

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Re: [Tau] O'Shova - Commander Farsight

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:46 pm

his skills arent instant damage, so i need to create a unit for each "attack".
i can make it magic damage, but the only nuke with a projectile and damage at the end is storm bolt. so unless you want all his skills to ministun...

its either physical damage, or many mini stuns.
tbh, i dont care either way


11 armor > 5. by mroe than double. plus nuke damage.
being in melee range will be the only real draw back, as he will still deal normal damage to -armor'd enemies.
and its not much of a draw back as he has a blink, and needs to be in melee range anyway for his nuke.


so assume he doesnt have dawn blade. at all.
blink in + arc already puts him in melee range of everything.

you make it seem like in melee mode he will automatically suck. he has the same stats as before

if hes attacking from range, he will get at most 2 attacks against a kharn before hes in melee range.
and dawn blade *allows* him to dps. its a dps boosting skill.


you seem to not know what the point of good initiation is:
instant into the enemy team, with a stun or disable of some sort, allowing your slower/more fragile heroes to cast their own aoe stuns.
its not a role or capability used at all in pubs, but it still exists, and he is not bad for it.


and how did his skills become uninspiring and bland? >.> you were going to give him an aura, a jump with +ms, and a summon.
i gave him an aura that gets better as he dies, a jump + damage, a summon + damage.
theres is no "became"


As to 'removing' damage from blade and blink, it was an example.
he is not - only - a dedicated nuker.
i can, theoretically, remove the damage from the blade and from the blink, and buff the damage on arc to compensate, and he will have the same role
(and atm, having the same relative damage spread out over 3 skills is in fact worse than ahving it all concentrated into one skill, because itll cost more mana)


his damage output comes from attacking an enemy that now has no amor
he can burst nuke out the ass
however, he is a support hero. A frontline hero, for sure, but in essence, he is a support hero.

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