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Abbadon The Despoiler

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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:03 pm

zebio's been here longer than u gly Razz sorry.

edit: anyway, now to talking about the hero's skills

whats wrong with the innate? its not all 4 of thsoe effects at once, you have to chose one to be active at a time.

while i agree that planet killer should be an ult... its also concievable as a regular skill. the aoe would be huge, and the damage wouldnt be that great. and they wouldnt have a large aoe either. i also dont like the black crusade being a passive skill... it would either be an ult or the innate...

and black crusade: i see this skill having an *epic* long cooldown (like 300 seconds or so) lasting for like 2 or 3 waves. its not adding a perma unit to the spawn, but its more of like a super summon skill.

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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by Fromundaman on Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:20 pm

That could work too.

And yeah, I do see how Planet Killer *could* be a normal skill, but it *feels* like an ult.

I don't know... to me it feels like making Orbital Bombardment do 200 damage and making it a normal skill: It could work, but it doesn't feel like it should.

And Zebio, that's cool, just making a suggestion. Figured the fact it gives more gold/exp to the other team would counteract the effects of having an extra unit in the spawn, making it a risk vs reward skill.

That being said, the skill is more about the crusade than the fortress, right? (To know if I'm even throwing ideas along the right lines.)




(And yeah Gly, Zebio's been here longer than most of us. He made the Techpriest I like so much too.)
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by Glycine on Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:34 pm

Rawr, fine. ._. I do apologize for that. We (or I) just don't see you too much, so I assumed wrongly. ><

And I just like to see numbers on the innate and summons.

Although Cato's summons give more gold and that doesn't really counteract their opness till end-game... ^^;

I agree about planet killer, though. The concept is ult-level, so it's hard to make it not.
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by ZebioLizard on Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:23 pm

it's really extremely hard to get something past grass which he disagrees with. And I have a notion why.

The problem wasn't grass disagreeing with it, infact he was rather accepting of it, it was the other fellow who was getting on my nerve about it. If grass had said. "The ult doesn't work for this map/it sucks/ it's to rigged/I like cereal!" I would've really rather changed it up rather quickly

But yeah, I've been here with grass since he was just a fledgling mapmaker looking and struggling badly for someone to host his beta's without a forum

And I don't take to much kindly to being forced to change skills unless its the mapmaker itself telling me it's bad for the map, and we had a long..loong discussion on the chat box about it. Before I even made this hero I had shown grass the ultimate, so I could make sure it would be good for his ult. And since he even liked it, and accepted it then (the ult) It was bugging me that someone kept mocking on the fact that it had the blackstone fortress as a base... When in general it was just about the whole black crusade more then anything.

(And yeah Gly, Zebio's been here longer than most of us. He made the Techpriest I like so much too.)

I did? Link me, it's been quite sometime since I even knew what I made months ago. xD.

And I just like to see numbers on the innate and summons.

I do too in actuality, it's just when I make them myself, they end up..well.. Either to sucky, or to god damned rigged. xD Unless it's certain types of skills, and these aint them!

I agree about planet killer, though. The concept is ult-level, so it's hard to make it not.

The problem is, is that everything about abbadons skills (except horus talons) is ult level. The big daemon blade? Able to kill BANEBLADES in one hit, and able to strike through several things at once on the tabletop... Planetkiller itself wasn't used to much to bombarde land, a few times. But the main thing about abbadons ult was the black crusade, generally because those have done the most damage, they bring the god's eyes to even watch the destruction in the imperium. Planetkiller couldn't compare to his grand crusades because in the end, he even gained two powerful weapons to use in newer black crusades (The fortresses) And it truly is what should be his most iconic and ultimate skill. I couldn't find much about abbadon to make anymore skills, so I was forced to use planetkiller without being forced to use some sort of backup weapon that wouldn't fit him.
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by 13loodRaven on Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:09 pm

And that is why I suggested this dude for Primarch mode when it gets developed, I already said to Gly that this dude would be way to powerfull for the normal 40k aos, and he said just to tone him down. Thats where I agreed to it but said that the forces of order should have someone like St. Helena on their team.

To Zebio, Horus' Talons (Fluff and Codex wise) would still be ult level... So its starts getting tricky from here, whether to implement him (toned down), which wouldn't be wise at all... The Warmaster of Chaos has a NIL chance of getting killed by a space marine/vehicle, even a hero. The chaos gods love him too much. I suggest we tone him up (maybe in a different topic) and save him for primarch mode.

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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by ZebioLizard on Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:27 am

Really? I've never found much mention of them in fluff or codex, I just remember they were lightning claws mixed with ancient gun that functions as a bolter.

I usually do most of these by using wiki's, then if I have knowledge of the weaponry/things in it, I replicate that effect to the best of my knowledge.

I badly need codex's currently, I plan on making a commissar, but I can't remember the full rules for things.
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by 13loodRaven on Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:07 am

One thing I can recommend is ordering them online, or tracking down a place near you where they're for sale. Which is usually where the 40k novels are.

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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by ZebioLizard on Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:04 pm

I'm not buying a damn codex just to make a hero <.<
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by DeusMechanicus on Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:06 pm

Download them?
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by 13loodRaven on Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:02 pm

But that is illegal Surprised

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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by DeusMechanicus on Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:34 pm

I was not consulted when the laws were made, thus I choose not to follow them.
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:53 pm

not to mention theres an entire *really* obvious site dedicated to that kind of thing... and it could (prolly) be easily shut down if they really wanted to

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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by ZebioLizard on Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:11 pm

Pm me that would ya?
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by ChangerOfWays on Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:20 pm

and me, again. . . because grass never sent it to me in the first place! >.<
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:29 pm

pm me your emails and ill email you the torrent files

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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by Mortis on Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:31 pm

Going back a bit, If all the complaints about Abbadon being too powerful for this, Why not simply drum it down and make a Chaos Lord, and give him similar, but weaker traits to what we have been discussing for Abby?
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by Glycine on Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:54 pm

I don't mind Abbadon in the game. He's too buff with all his skills. He can push, he can DPS, he can tank, he can do it all and rape the hell out of any hero.

And it's hard to give a chaos lord similar, yet weaker traits because otherwise the original character loses spirit. The only thing I can really see us doing is nerfing his skills a lot and actually assigning values to them for balance. Chaos is already a ridiculously strong Tavern, so Abbadon complicates things.
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:51 am

gah.
why is it that everyone has it in their heads that just cause a character in the fluff is rediculously powerful, they have to be similarirly over powered in game...

i mean we have the freaken dragon! and he can be killed by a simple harlequin or ork komando.

strength of a character in the fluff should not have any baring on their power in game.

and as to the actual hero:
hes not as op as one would expect... hes got some passive self-buffs (that only one can be on at a time)
the first skill is rediculous >.> but thats numbers.
and other than that he has: self-buff, instakill-orb, aoe damage, disable, summon.

i wouldnt mind seeing him in game, but he could be cleaned up a bit.

also: for his sword, if were gona build on the 'rend-reality' fluff. how about this: %chance on hit to pull all nearby enemies towards abbadon. if the effect triggers when attacking a creep, it dies instantly.
this ties in with a potential aoe skill, and his melee ranged hold.

and plannet killed can be changed to a single powerful laser or something. cause i agree that the current incarnation sounds like a toned down ult. make it do like (almost) like the current LoC's flame skill. a focused laser from his planetkiller dealing aoe damage over time for like 2 seconds.
just an idea.

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Heroes:
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by Glycine on Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:16 am

I feel that insta-kill off a passive non-ult skill is still too much. I mean, we just gave Carnifex insta-kill for his ult for only 20 seconds at a limited chance, so why should Abbadon receive such a skill with no drawback to him.

It would be much helpful if we had values on the skills, so could Zebio please put tentative values up? The ult looks like the most monstrous pushing skill ever invented, so I'm worried about it, especially early game.
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by cellrawr on Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:50 am

Surprised doesn't vindicare assassin have instakill off his innate?

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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by Glycine on Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:16 pm

That's because he's a sniper. It has a 10% chance of proc'ing at level 25, so once we nerf his attack speed, it'll be fine. Abbadon, on the other hand, has no restrictions on attack speed and can rape creeps as if he were not even trying. In other words, do you really, really, really want to give him a farming skill, considering everything else he does? Vindi is nowhere near the potential OP Abbadon represents.

The first skill just isn't only numbers, it's mechanics. Because it's a passive, he can proc it as many times as he wants. It's like giving him a free power fist with more effects that make it ridiculous. Even if the progression is 5/10/15/20% to proc pulverize that does 50/100/150/200 damage, that's still 20% chance to kill all basic units around him, which is absurd, again. >> Not only that, it can apply a DoT and teleport heroes around as well, which means no melee hero will be able to take him on without being raped by either the DoT or the teleport. Simply too much it can do, so we have to strip it down.

The innate doesn't seem a bunch of passive-self buffs. I mean, he says the skills have to be used. Even so, they're ridiculous.

Khorne's buff is like Feeder Tendrils on steroids. Imagine a bunch of Guardsmen, firing at him. He could get 25,000 health just like that and 4,000 damage. Even if it serves like Keeper's innate, at least Keeper was a fragile hero. And with so much strength, his regen will be absurd as welll.

Nurgle's buff essentially gives him FNP, which is lame but true. Now he can tank pretty much everything with Plague Armor. Slannesh's buff turns him into a DPS tank, which aren't supposed to exist. >> And he can just turn on Tzeentch if he ever runs low on mana. Though on a side note, he can technically take all four of the bonuses at the same time because he combined all the marks into one mark... >>

At least for Celestine, I tried to not make the bonuses too ridiculous conceptual wise. The numbers can be nerfed, as always, but the concepts here, especially with Khorne, don't balance well.

Planet Killer should be somewhat more unique that a copy of LoC's Firestorm, though.
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:59 pm

abbadons sword wouldnt kill *all* creeps around him, it would just kill the creep he attacks, and how about this: % chance to proc, and if it procs on a creep, it has a % chance to instantly kill it (so the skill itself isnt usless, but it wont be killing creeps every 2 seconds)
something like 20% chance to proc, and if it procs on a creep, there is a 10% chance that the creep dies.
so, 20% to work, 2% chance to kill a creep

and the innate is like a bunch of toggle self buffs he choses which one he wants to have on with only 1 on at a time.

and maby khornes mark needs to be changed a bit... but the others arent that bad.

im thinking(assuming khorne stays...)
Khorne: every 300 damage taken, he gains 1/2/3/4/5/6 strength. (so if he has 3k hp somehow, he would get 60 str before he dies) maby 6 is too much end game, so lets say 1/1/2/2/3/3 with a duration of lets say 30/40/40/50/50/60 seconds or something.
nurgle: gains a 5/7/9/11/13/15% damage reduction, and 100/175/250/325/400/475 hp.
slaanesh: gains +200/300/400/500/600/700 night vision, 600/700/800/900/1100/1200 flying vision, 10/13/16/19/22/25% ias, and 6/7/8/9/10/11%ms
tzeentch: and gains 100/200/300/400/500/600 mana, and +3/4/5/6/7/8 mana per second. deals 20/27/34/41/48/56 damage to a unit that attacks him.
only one of these can be on at a time

sword:
has a 10/15/20/25% chance on attack to warp reality around his target, drawing all nearby enemies towards that point and dealing abaddons inteligence as damage. If the effect occurs when attacking a creep, there is a 10/12/14/16% chance that the creep will be swallowed by the warp, dying instantly.

planet killer:
fires a focused laser beam at the target point, dealing 20/30/40/50 damage over time for 2 seconds while rockets fired from orbit strike the ground around the area, each dealing 10/20/30/40 damage and stunning for 1 second.

hold:
fires the bolter, dealing 60/120/180/240 damage. If the target is within 200 range of abbadon, it is also run through with the lightning claws, becoming stunned for 2 seconds and taking abbadons strength as damage.

ult:
calls upon the black crusade! 5/6/7 chaos marines spawn down each lane at the furthest captured outpost. If they die, another squad will spawn again. Up to 1 squad can be summoned per minute.
(its at the outpost, cause spawning at the base is awkward for the lanes)

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Heroes:
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by Glycine on Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:00 pm

Even though Zebio explicitly says that the Tzeentch one has to be "used"? xD

It's there, Grass. Also you missed the part about how he gains strength on attack. Unless you want to take that out... >>

And where in blazing hells is Zebio? Twice now we've discussed his heroes, and I know he comes on the forums occasionally. Shouldn't he be the one elaborating his skills?
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:25 pm

no, i know that they have to be 'used' but :
in the description: "He can however, only pray to one god at once, as he is not as blessed as Horus, Unable to take all the gods at once."
and he said this in *his* third reply: "The innate is basically a spellbook type thing, when you click it, you can choose the blessing most likely to benefit you at the moment. Although to represent the fact he isn't as godly as horus it could be when you first choose the hero."
so yes, its a 'chose one of these buffs' thing.

and yes, i took out the str on attack. unless you want to half the values on the current str-on-taken-damage, and give him that str for every 300 damage dealt.

and zebio's off and on Razz

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Re: Abbadon The Despoiler

Post by ZebioLizard on Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:24 pm

Pretty much, not to mention grass saying it leads to less arguments, since he's better with the balance xD I've been mainly doing college work and playing Lan with several friends, along with trying to finish other games that's not war3.

I also have been thinking of doing a few heros, but I I dont wanna read through everything to see what was already made/being made/considered to be made xD
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