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[Incomplete]Konrad Curze

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Re: [Incomplete]Konrad Curze

Post by DeusMechanicus on Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:41 am

They never say if Konrad Curze is dead or not.. The transmission goes to static before he is struck down by the assassin, and the assassin never returns to the Imperium to confirm the kill.. It's believed that Curze had dual personalities, so his final words to the assassin could've been referencing the death of one of those personalities (or atleast its recession into the depths of his mind as the other takes dominance)..

"He knew that he was two men. One was... just and righteous-" the daemon spat the words, disgusted "- whilst the other... mm... the other had felt the kiss of Chaos all its life. One thrived on focus. The other ate fear."
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Re: [Incomplete]Konrad Curze

Post by 13loodRaven on Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:00 am

Indeed, but there are some heroes that simply shouldn't be allowed into the map. Tone down the skills, change them even, turn this hero into Zso Sahaal, Talos, or he maybe even turn into a strength hero; Krieg Acerbus.

Just some suggestions...

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Re: [Incomplete]Konrad Curze

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:00 pm

13loodRaven wrote:Indeed, but there are some heroes that simply shouldn't be allowed into the map.

can i ask why?

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Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Re: [Incomplete]Konrad Curze

Post by Glycine on Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:05 pm

The Emperor demands a word with you in private, Grass. He might want to talk about something called common sense.

Jesus, is it so hard for you to see the balance problems inherent with some heroes? If you decided to work the Emperor in the game as a playable hero, I'm not sure I would even help you with that, because it's ludicrous, not to mention a stupid idea. Heroes that cannot be balanced in any way, shape, or form, should not even be considered, much less written out.

Some heroes often aren't pertinent to the map, like a Warcraft hero, thus not applicable, and the reasons go on.

Your thought is that every individual in the w40k universe can be balanced for the WC3 setting, where as it doesn't quite work that way. It's the reason Titans aren't heroes, or Baneblades aren't heroes, or trees aren't heroes.

There is a respectable line of believability that we have to tread. C'tan and Greater Daemons, while immensely powerful, also are somewhat variable in their range of power.

The Nightbringer could have been killed forever, had Ventris decided to blow the tomb and seal them both inside. Greater Daemons can be banished back to whence they came by Grey Knights.

These are my guidelines for what can be a hero:

For a hero to come into existance from the W40k universe for normal play, it is required to fulfill certain rules.

1. The hero in question must have an aspect of mortality. Things that cannot die like gods or things that were never alive to start with like trees cannot be heroes.

2. The hero must have a fluctuating power level. Heroes cannot be omniscient nor omnipotent. Some heroes have higher power ceilings, like Greater Daemons, but can be justified to exist at lower levels. The average hero is roughly the level of a Space Marine Captain, i.e. Cato.

3. The hero cannot cause huge controversy if put into the game. It is unacceptable to break the fluff needlessly for what we must do. The Emperor applies in this case. We can't resurrect Horus for any good reason.

4. If a hero is unequivocally dead or has died during the events of the Horus Heresy, there must be a damn good reason why he/she's in. Eldrad does not actually apply, since there is but a flicker in his soulstones and that ambiguity can be exploited. Celestine's the only hero who's truly dead via nuclear explosion but she rose from the dead before...

As for how this applies to Primarches:

1. They were alive, but most of them are now Daemon Princes, deceased, or vanished. It took 100 Grey Knight Terminators alone to banish Angron back to the Warp. Not to mention when he and 50,000 berserkers went on a rampage. tl;dr Chaos Primarchs are ridiculously strong.

The wars and rebellions the forces of Khorne sparked ravaged over seventy sectors. In the end it took four Space Marine chapters, two Titan legions and more than thirty Imperial Guard regiments to retake what the Imperium had lost.

Fulgrim's a four-armed serpent of sword slashing death, Perturabo and Mortarion sit back on their planets and really haven't done anything for the last 8,000 years. Lorgar's meditating and Magnus the Red sits from his tower and watches the future. Very little news has happened about the primarchs recently, and nothing will seem to change very quickly.

2. There is not enough data on the Primarchs to accurately gauge their present power level, but we can assume they're ridiculously strong. If they're dead, that's null, but it is otherwise hard to shape any form of limitation on the Primarchs when all battle data has remained vague.

3. Primarchs will undeniably be tough to balance. Also, we can't make dead/disappeared heroes alive unless we revert time itself. Many Daemon Princes would also clash with each other, because of their affiliations.

4. See 3. We find ourselves in a position where it is hard to win with Primarchs. Damned if we make them too good and damned if we nerf them to normal levels and get a ridiculous outcry. The only place where Primarchs belong is with each other, where comparisons can best be made (A Horus Heresy mode/theme, etc), and not in the present map, because the ensuing mixup just isn't worth it.

PS: Talon is awesome. He would totally fit this skillset, with changes.
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Re: [Incomplete]Konrad Curze

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:36 am

i dont like your reasoning, because you point out counter examples to your own points and then say 'they dont count'

1: primarchs are mortal, just ridiculously strong. they can and have died.
2: again, they are neither omnipotent nor immortal
3: having primarchs as a playable character by no means breaks the fluff. they are alive, out there, uncrippled (some are dead, yeah, lets not put them in)
4: this is a good point, some are dead, quite obviously. those prolly cant get in. (deus has given evidence that this guy might not be dead anyway)


C'Tan, greater daemons, etc. *all* have power greatly above that of a normal hero (psyker vs greater daemon, yet the psyker is able to win somehow - thats because we are in a WC3 setting) And this skillset itself proves that primarchs are possible candidates for implementation.
you keep insisting that "Heroes that cannot be balanced in any way, shape, or form, should not even be considered, much less written out." and I AGREE with that statement; however, this suggestion itself is proof that primarchs CAN be balanced.
it seems to me very much that you have it in your head that a primarch, just by nature of being a primarch, HAS to be able to 1v3 heroes. While i can say that our bloodthirster, by nature of who he is, *should* be powerful enough to 1vs3 heroes that exist atm in the game, but cant. Because He Is Balanceable.

if people feel like suggesting primarchs, let them.
If its totally imbalanced, we can either ignore it or tone it donw *just like any other* powerful hero suggestion.

i fail to see what makes primarchs so totally different from any other *fluff wise* powerful hero.


PS: im not insisting that they *have* to go into the game, im saying they are valid candidates. So far it seems like no one else wants to suggest them, so its not likely that they can get in anyway. Keep an open mind on these things.
and if you want to rename this guy but keep the skillset, go for it. im not stoping you from or forcing you to do anything.
but this is a pretty good set of skills that would work well in the game (remember, i think in terms of concept and how itll fit into the game Razz).
its unfair to ban it from the game because "primarchs are too strong"

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And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
"Behold The Stuff! It Is Good!"
And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Re: [Incomplete]Konrad Curze

Post by Glycine on Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:54 pm

I'm not banning the skillset, just the particular type of hero for open selection. As I said above, the skillset can be used for another individual, with proper adjusting.
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Re: [Incomplete]Konrad Curze

Post by 13loodRaven on Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:23 am

Back on topic fellas, what is going to happen to this hero now we have had our little chat about other heroes?

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Re: [Incomplete]Konrad Curze

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:42 pm

rename him? Very Happy

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And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
"Behold The Stuff! It Is Good!"
And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Re: [Incomplete]Konrad Curze

Post by 13loodRaven on Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:15 pm

I saw that gly wrote that Talos would be perfect for this skillset, any ideas?

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Re: [Incomplete]Konrad Curze

Post by DeusMechanicus on Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:28 pm

Talos was pretty cool.. He was true to the old Konrad Curze, pre-Heresy.. "Fear through Focus" and whatnot.. While the rest of the legion just descended into abunch of bloodthirsty psycopaths rampaging across the galaxy..
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Re: [Incomplete]Konrad Curze

Post by 13loodRaven on Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:17 am

Well its up to you and moderators to change the hero...

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Re: [Incomplete]Konrad Curze

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