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[Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

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[Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Mortis on Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:20 pm

Through the long, secret history of the Inquisition, there have been many who have advocated the study and harnessing of Warp entities in order to defeat the Dark Gods. Radical inquisitors sometimes employ the services of bound Daemon hosts to further their own ends. Once such entity is the Daemon Prince known as Cherubael, bound into the body of a former servant by Inquisitor Eisenhorn, Ravenor's former master.

Cherubael, Demonhost

Inate: Warp Summoning
"A daemon host is a psychic monstrosity, able to manifest many strange and powerful abilitys, and allways appear directly in the field of combat, summoned by their own, or their Master's powers."
Effect: Teleports the Daemonhost to the targeted area already explored area, with a casting time of 6/5/4/3/2/1 seconds.
Level 1: Mc 100, Cd 60 Seconds 6 Casting time
Level 2: mc 90, Cd 55 Seconds 5 Casting time
Level 3: Mc 80, Cd 50 seconds 4 Casting time
Level 4: Mc 75, Cd 45 Seconds 3 Casting Time
Level 5: Mc 70, Cd 40 Seconds 2 Casting Time
Level 6: Mc 60, Cd 35 Seconds 1 Casting Time

The Temptations of the Warp
"The Daemonhost despite being bound by its Master's Will, still attempts to claim more souls for chaos, Locking eyes with a victim and pulling at their energy reserves and willpower"

Effect: Renders and Enemy hero imobile, and unable to attack for 1/2/3 Seconds, Channeling, And drains mana based on a % for the time held, damaging the target for 50% of the mana lost. In addition, Pings and reveals the locations of all enemy heros at less then 25% of their Max Mana

Level 1; Mc 120, Cd 30, Drains 3% Max Mana per Second,
Level 2: Mc 150, Cd 25, Drains 6% Max Mana per Second,
Level 3: Mc 180, Cd 20, Drains 9% Max Mana per second,
Level 4: Mc 210, Cd 15, Drains 12% max Mana per second,

Call of the Warp
"The Daemonhost calls to a victim who is lacking in willpower or ability to resist, warp energies pouring in to corrupt them all the whilst it draws them in closer for the kill"

Effect: Channeling: Pulls a Target in towards the caster at a rate of 200 ms. Deals damage equal to mana missing at a ration of one mana to .1/.2/.3./4. damage. Pulls for 3 Seconds

Level 1: Mc 150, Cd 30 Seconds
Level 2: Mc 150, Cd 25 Seconds
Level 3: Mc 150, Cd 20 Seconds
Level 4: Mc 150, Cd 15 Seconds


Re-knit (Passive)

Whenever an effect controlled by the daemonhost causes an enemy hero to loose mana ( Including Feed Back Orb) , heal the daemon host by an amount equal .2/.3/.4/.5 Hp Per mana burnt. Add 2/3/4/5 damage per 75 mana burned. This buff stacks, but each fades 5 seconds after gain.

Ult
Daemonic Spirit ( passive )

Spawns a Daemon Spirit on Death, Cd is 120/110/100
Invul, 50 hp
0/750 mana to start.
has the Siphon Soul, Warp Vortex, and Possession abilities.

Siphon Soul: target any unit to drain 50 + %missing mana per second from it. (like the life drain proposed ult, 50% missing = 50+50 mana drain) 0 manacost, 10 second cooldown. channeling

Warp Vortex: pulls all units *very slowly* towards yourself. If they reach you, they are transported to the target location. channeling. 300 manacost, 10 second cooldown.

Possession: take control of target creep. If the Daemonhost respawns while the creep is controlled, kills the creep and the Daemonhost spawns from the creep instead of the base. 500 manacost.
either a 30 second cooldown, or kills the soul to control the creep like ladder possession.

all these skills have infinite duration


Last edited by Mortis on Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:47 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Mortis on Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:36 am

Ok im playing around with this for a different ult/ ability

Re-Knit

Targets an enemy hero, and siphons mana over 5 seconds, slowing their movement speed by 50%, also healing the Daemonhost 1 hp per mana drained. If his hp excedes his max, the rest is fed back to the target as damage.

either the damage would go up if it was an ult, or the cd/cc would go down if it was an ability.

Ult:
Damage: (1:1)/(1:2)/(1:3)
CC: 200
Cd: 60
or

Ability:
CC: 150/140/130/120
CD: 60/45/30/15
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:55 pm

replace call of the warp with re-knit . because as it is, you have 2 disables that last a long time.
then you can change the damage type from a drain to the current damage per missing mana thing, keeping the heal.

and i like possesion!
but the possessing a creep thing seems randomly unessesary...
i dont know how this would work out in the end... but possibly make him only revive if the creep dies to his dot? if something else kills it he wont respawn.
this would ally you to keep the rediculously low cooldown for a reincarnation type spell Razz

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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Glycine on Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:01 am

Yeah, make your changes, Mortis, and then I'll look over it again. The ones from the night before, that is.
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Mortis on Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:55 am

Which changes where that?
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Glycine on Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:36 am

Replacing the third skill with reknit, making such that when he drains/burns mana from someone, he recovers a portion of health as he is able to absorb the released warp energy and use it to fuel his daemonic powers?

That's what I recall mostly, from the final discussion.

Also...

ZEUS ULT NOW. xD
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Mortis on Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:30 pm

Ha ha ha..... Well, im not sure i like him burning mana from the heavens. Where would the fun be in that?

Mmmm

So i move reknit up there, and reword it so he gains hp from the drain?
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:24 pm

i like that idea.
if im getting this right, reknit is a passive? whenever he drains mana, he gains health from it?

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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Mortis on Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:43 pm

More or less... And in addition, if it heals him moer then his max hp, it deals the carry over as damage. Im not sure how to word this in rules terms however
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:44 pm

just try it out in a post and ill help you word it

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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Mortis on Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:01 am

Ok...

Re-knit (Passive)

Whenever an effect controlled by the daemonhost causes an enemy hero to loose mana, heal the daemon host by an ammount equal to 1mp per 1 hp. If the maximum HP would be exceeded by this effect, it is dealt to the hero being mana burnt at a ratio of 1/2/3/4 damage per HP that exceeds the max
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Mortis on Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:09 am

Ok Glyc, look at the main post now, and see if that Re-knit works for you. It might be a bit op, but considering all his ability's revolve around the enemy having mana, it could/might work.
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Glycine on Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:32 pm

Uhm.. *pulls out his math hammer to destroy*

Let's see. So if you use mana drain on a hero with 1800 mana, for an average hero, you'd drain 648 mana. If we assume that Cherub is at max health and the bonuses are at level 4: For every 10 health above max absorbed, 10 Damage, 4 % Attack and Movement Speed.

Soo you'd gain about 640 damage, 250.6 attack and movement speed. Still totally op, Mort, but that's ok. xD Just keep tinkering with it.

How about for every 100 health he goes over, he gets the same bonuses, instead of every 10? ^^;
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Mortis on Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:10 pm

Meh.... It only lasts 3 seconds. That means if he uses both of his skills, and attacks, he has about 3 seconds to kill them before hes just a vanilla melee hero with all ability's on cd. Believe me, i did the math on this, and maybe the ability could be nerfed bit, but not quite that much.
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Glycine on Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:21 pm

Lol, give Karandras 3 seconds on you and tell me if you still live.

Zoey only needs 1 second to kill you usually, so does that mean he doesn't need a nerf? No matter the duration, it's all about the damage one can do in that duration. Even if it lasts 3 seconds, he has close to max attack speed with what you've got so far, so that's .5 seconds per attack. That means 6 attacks at roughly base damage + 200/300 bonus damage, if I have your gist. Still OP, considering you've destroyed their mana shield and are ready to decimate their 1.5k life pool.

And I think I'm going to put down my foot at this point. I don't care if you try to make an anti-caster hero. We need more of them, so that's nice. What I won't stand for is any hint of potential extreme overpoweredness under ANY situation. If a situation can be designed in which the skill can become ridiculously OP, like even +100 damage with a lot of attack speed, then that situation by itself negates the potential balance of all other situations.

Think of it this way. If your character were put into the game right now, you would rape the shit out of any caster every single game. Teleport in, hold with mana burn, attack, pull, attack, dead. That's unacceptable. xD I don't care if your hero becomes vanilla for a minute. Every other minute, you're getting either a kill or an assist, which is absurd.

And I believe that you did do the math on this. Could you please show it to everyone, though? I did my math on it, but it's your math that you use to support your arguments, so I want to see it.
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Mortis on Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:08 pm

I never said math was my strong suit Glyc.... How about i drop the bonus to trigger on 50 Hp over, and reduce the intervals of the speed boosts to .5/1/1.5/2 %?
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Glycine on Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:25 pm

Lol, I never said it was. But the math tells the story. xD;

Let's use the previous situation from before.

If you use mana drain on a hero with 1800 mana, for an average hero, you'd drain 648 mana. Assuming full health...

That would result in a gain of 130 damage, and 26% ms and as. The AS in that case wouldn't be bad, but the damage and movement speed are still very iffy.

Even if you were down 400 life, that's still 248 extra life. So you get yourself back to full, and have an additional 50 damage. That's like Mad Doc healing himself and damaging you with the same healing wave, plus extra buffs.

Sorry if I sounded a bit mean in the last part. I'm just not very fond of reiterating the same concept. ^^;

Perhaps we should look at this from another angle. This is a normal skill. It should no means be ult level. No normal skill has the impact you suggest your skill does. Maybe that's because the synergy works, but too well.

Let's use it on Ahriman, who's buff end-game. He'll have around 1800 life and 3200 mana, if he plays fairly well and gets kills. So start off draining him off a gank and you're at full life. Keep in mind this is a hold and a mana drain, so they can't block it or escape it once it's done unless a teammate stuns you out of it.

36% of 3200 is 1152 mana. So you convert this 1152 mana to health, except you're already at full. In that case, let's assume the bonus triggers and stacks each time at 50 health over. It'll then stack a total of 23 times.

From those 23 times, you get 230 damage, and 46% ms and as. So you attack Ahriman with your auto-attack a bunch of times until the buffs wear off shortly. Assume by some miracle he has 200 health remaining and 1000 mana remaining due to use of mana shield at this point.

From this point on, you can simply hold him. Since the hold does damage based on the mana they lack, Ahriman lacks 2200 mana from his max. .4 of that value is 880 damage.

So yeah. With your two skills, you've done 880 damage, 1150 mana drain, and gotten a self-buff for +230 bonus damage in addition to whatever else you possess in the span of 10 seconds.

Not to assault you personally, but this is what I'm railing against. Your two normal skills, which aren't even ult level, do too much damage because they rely on a % of mana lost or remaining, and since mana can go quite high, that makes him unbalanced.

Plus, if you team up with Void, who can make any character have lots of int, you could pretty much turn their whole team into mana pools which you destroy. >>
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Mortis on Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:37 am

Well

Maybe ive been playing Magic the Gathering too long... I automaticly go for the op OMG I KILLZ YOUZ NAOZ!. Ok, to balance this buff out. Lets do it this way.

Reduce the damage buff to 2/3/4/5

And the trigger on it be increased to 75 Hp over.

That balance it out enough? i wont bother showing my math, because you will do it yourself anyways just to double check me

XD
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:03 am

i think another huge problem that needs to be looked at is that he has a global blink and 2 target disables.

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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Mortis on Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:58 am

Well Grass... he was built as a disabler and a ganker. If he ganks someone, and someone else comes and helps, hes screwed because of his long cool downs.

I think it would work nicely, better disablers have existed on other games and work out fine, ex Lion, Dota
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:01 am

cause a global blink and 6 seconds of unavoidable disable + he has a heal and a revive... sounds balanced? Razz

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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Mortis on Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:04 am

Well, As it stands, the ult is currently lacking, me and Glyc where debating it and i haven't decided which to add in yet, Ill figure it out in the next day at least. His global blink is only to a place he has vision of however, so it's not quite global btw.
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:58 pm

its still global Razz and however you look at it, the ult is still a reincarnation. which is powerful in itself

oh, is your pull skill an actual disable?
are they forced to walk towards you, or are they pulled, leaving them undisabled.
cause that would help alot to fix it

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Glycine on Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:11 pm

So Grass, Cato's skill will pretty much be global when you extend the range. Are you saying that's a bad thing? Razz

Speaking of which, nerf the hold on challenge from the company champion. Whatever your reason for justification, it should not have that strong of a skill. Scarabs can have their little 1.5 second hold, but they don't do any damage nor give a 20% damage buff to units around. For all intensive purposes, it's a stun that his summons do not need. That's like giving Guardsmen rocket launchers. >> They are already buff enough, in the scheme of summons.

Don't know why would you make Cato's summons actually better then Cato, especially early game. >>

Aside from that little rant, the ult might be changed to a teleport-type skill, although possession wouldn't be bad aside from creating a copy of lucius's ult. >>
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Re: [Incomplete]Cherubael- Daemonhost

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:32 pm

way to go offtopic gly Razz
cato isnt an insane ganker, thats why his pod is ok.
context of the hero
and you can have multiple scarabs, so with micro, scarabs > cato's summon for the disable. and in a lot of ways a hard disable is better than a force attack disable.


this guy has 6 seconds of disable, a global teleport, a heal, and reincarnation. along with some pretty powerful damage. i really hope you can see that as a concept, 2 stuns, global blink and lots of survival is bad.
and his ult isnt a copy of lucius' Razz its similar but not the same. but i agree it could be made a little less similar.

and changing the ult into a mass teleport (if this was your idea... i caught the end of you discussion when i came back yesterday) would be redundent cause of the innate.

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And the Stuff was good.

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