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Eldar Balance Changes

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by cellrawr on Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:58 pm

I actually think flip should go away and be replaced with webway instead, gly. She already has flip belt as a part of her character (she wouldn't be able to even do Dance if she didn't have one). Thing is the webway isn't something they can access without the use of gates, right? The whole point of the webway is that it's safer and faster than warp travel, but without a gate near where they want to go the users are
worse off.

And dammit grass, get on your bot or the chatbox!

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:06 pm

Well, you have to elaborate webway. And it really should be her ult.

I guess I'll make another build. xD

Innate: Domino Field
4/8/12/16/20/24% regular evasion, with 2/4/6/8/10/12% triggered evasion.

Skill 1: Spider's Web (Represents a Harlequin's Kiss, with changes)

- Perhaps a tripwire of sorts she can lay on trees that'll do damage and stun when someone walks across it? Or she could anchor it to a tree and run around a whole mob, restricting their movement and bunching them all together?

Skill 2: What's a good skill then? A Rictus Mask? xD

Skill 3: Maybe dance of death or an entirely new skill.

Ult: Webway Assault

Enables the Harlequin to gain access to the forgotten Webway Portals still hidden on the world and teleport around using them.
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by cellrawr on Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:48 pm

:/ Not gonna lie, I'm still not feeling the webway assault. Since grass is a douche and won't come on, Ill just list my suggested changes. And what is a domino field.

Innate: Fleet of Foot

Passive: For every 500 distance traveled, increases Harlequin's ms by 1/2/3/4/5/6%. Resets when Harlequin stops moving. (They have to stop temporarily to attack, so yea. And it could make a new tactic of having the player move around manually (dancing around in place), CAUSE THAT'S WHAT HARLEQUINS DO!)

Activate: Harlequin's ms does not reset when she stops moving. Toggable. Costs 25/30/35/40/45/50 mana per second while active. (Goes along with the fleet of foot rule of being able to assault in the same turn it has run, kinda.)


Dance of Death:
Passive: Has a 6/9/12/15% chance when attacking to blink behind the target and perform a 1.1/1.2/1.3/1.4x critical strike and knockback.

Tanglefoot Grenade:
Throws a grenade at a target location. The grenade overloads, creating a gravity field with a 300 aoe that slows enemies inside of it by 40% ms. Deals 40/50/60/70 per second to enemies in the field. Field lasts 3 seconds.

Holo-Field:
For every 50 ms the Harlequin has, she gains 1/1.5/2/2.5% evasion (the type she has now). (Holo-fields are clouds of crystal shards that dance around proportional to the speed the Harlequin is moving. So the faster she is, the better it goes.)

Ult: Harlequin's Kiss
Same

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by 13loodRaven on Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:24 am

Remember that the whole point of getting harle on this thread was to get rid of her silly ult and carry potential Razz

Perhaps webway gates can be plantable gates, with a max of 2/3/4 or something.

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:20 am

im not fond of web-way on the harlequin either. again, going by TT, the webway assaults are more a dark eldar thing.
yes, harles use the webway, but rarely do they do so at the same time a battle is going on around them.

i actually like cell's idea >.>

altho it moves her more towards a carry role cause of dance >.>

tho you took out the blink-like skills and gave her (potentially) ridiculous ms instead, which i might not be fond of. and

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:27 am

Where'd you pull that bit of info from, Grass, about harlequins not using the webway in battle? oo

Just because it's not directly stated doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Sure, the Dark Eldar are widely renowned for their use of webway gates to move across the battlefield, but unless any dark eldar hero actually has that ability, what's the point of saying that? The best option would probably be Vect, if he were to have the webway assault, but he doesn't. oo

Tanglefoot is a copy of Mandiblasters (<--Which slows for no reason, its main purpose is to do damage).

Cell's build is a copy of Karandras, almost, with a slow, a crit and knockback, massive ms, and evasion, which is exactly why I don't like it. Harlequins should be much, much, much different than normal aspect warriors.
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:37 am

how is tangle foot like mandi? XD
its an aoe slow with a dot. (any unit that enters becomes slowed, units that leave are no longer slowed)
madi is a target damage that slows

and where in any dex (even the harle one iirc) does it say that they use the webway mid battle?
im going off *existing* fluff where it exists, and, here, it most definatly exists.

and really, if your saying heroes with slows, ms, and crits are copies of kara, then there are a few Razz
actually, just about every hero with a crit has a ms boost and a slow Razz (cept asur doesnt have a ms boost, unless you count melee mode)


also, im all for replacing fleet on the original harle, but he *does not* need webway in his skillset.
the current one jumps around like a harle should, with sutible speed for a harle.

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by cellrawr on Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:11 pm

Fleet of Foot: My fleet of foot I already explained a bit. It goes along more with tabletop version of being able to attack in the same turn they ran. Since our heroes already can do that, I chose to translate it to this game by making them stay fast while being able to attack. Hell, the toggable part was the first thing that popped up in my head. It could have a set duration with a big mana cost for all I care.

Dance of Death: Her current Dance is based off DoW's Dance. Mine is modeled more off tabletops. Tabletops dance gives Harle's Furious Charge with Hit and Run. The crit part goes along with Furious Charge making them more brutal when they go in to melee, and the knockback goes with Hit and Run in that they get a chance to break combat (or they can continue, the knockback helps both). Don't rag on my dance when you were previously bitching about her current one! Mine at least tried to chang it while you just removed it.

Tanglefoot Grenade: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Harlequin_equipment
It's part of their equipment. It can easily be replaced with Hallucinogen or Plasma, I just liked the gravity one more and couldn't think of effects for the other two.

Holo-Field: Mine goes more with the fluff side (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Harlequin bottom of page) instead of the tabletop one. Tabletop gives it's the 5+ invuln save, which translates to her current straight evasion. Mine gives it the fluff effect of working better the faster she moves. Mine is an actual nerf to her evasion, cause it's more bitched about than anything else she has. It only get back around to its original percentages at max ms.

Harlequin Kiss: I want to keep it since it's one of their more fearsome and unique weapon's.


All of my stuff goes along with what Harlequin's have as their equipment and goes along as closely as I can with their fluff. You yourself said mandiblasters don't do what they are said to actually do. The only thing I found similar to Karandras in the codex actually were his stealth and biting blades maybe (I don't know what the +1S stuff meant, just the stacking part went along with ours).

Oh, and blood. I really don't see any other role for Harle other than a carry. Our Harle seems like it would be a Solitaire harlequin, since it doesn't travel with a troupe. Solitaires I read them being combat monsters, which carries are.


AND DON'T GET ME STARTED AGAIN ON THE WEBWAY SHIT! I already said the technology to make them is lost. Your ult just makes them magically be found right next to where they are fighting. The Webway ISN'T like the warp. It's a series of already existing tunnels. I'm not going with it magically having an exit conveniently where they want to go, within that short of a distance (across a battlefield at best).

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:04 am

This post goes on forever.................


Grass Hopper wrote:how is tangle foot like mandi? XD
its an aoe slow with a dot. (any unit that enters becomes slowed, units that leave are no longer slowed)
madi is a target damage that slows

and where in any dex (even the harle one iirc) does it say that they use the webway mid battle?
im going off *existing* fluff where it exists, and, here, it most definatly exists.

and really, if your saying heroes with slows, ms, and crits are copies of kara, then there are a few Razz
actually, just about every hero with a crit has a ms boost and a slow Razz (cept asur doesnt have a ms boost, unless you count melee mode)


also, im all for replacing fleet on the original harle, but he *does not* need webway in his skillset.
the current one jumps around like a harle should, with sutible speed for a harle.

@Grass.

Mandi + an opinion on carries:


First off, Mandi is not meant to slow. It's meant to open up a killing blow with a laser blast.

It's bad hero design to copy the same template over and over and over. What I see is a hero that has the exact same characteristics as most carries in the game, which is completely droll. Crit, check, slow, check, movement speed, check. Isn't there more to carries than just those 3 elements?

What are we doing besides reusing the same mold over and over? You yourself said that heroes need to be unique as we add them, but if we use the same concepts over and over, what's the point?

The Harlequins are not suitable for a carry position. They are light and strike hard, but their mobility is more prized than their power. In fact, they get power from their mobility. If we go from a tabletop perspective, their weapon skill and ballistics skill are off the charts, but their strength and toughness, like most Eldar, are sub-par. If they go up against a more heavily armored foe, they have to lose their advantage for the sake of balance, for one. She's not Mortred, for god's sake, who can pump out 1k crits at will.

Webway stuff:


Harlequins are just not Eldar. They affiliate themselves with Dark Eldar, Exodites, and even the Space Marines if Chaos is the true foe. As such, they may even use the tactics and resources of the Dark Eldar. Not to mention they're the official guardians of the Webway and have knowledge that the Imperium hasn't even imagined possible. Who's to say they haven't invented devices that enable them to access the webway? (And they have!)

Harlequin Codex: "Their knowledge of the Webway is unmatched, and they can appear and disappear almost at will;"

"There are Webway gates on many Imperial worlds, hinting at the Eldar's former power and dominance of the galaxy."

Not to mention Bonesingers can create Webway Portals from scratch (I'm not fond of a DoW reference, but it's there if you want to contest it), in addition to the amount surely present on any given planet. The Eldar's domain used to be the whole galaxy, their technology unrivaled and their reach unlimited.

It would not be a shock if the Eldar had at least 1, if not many webway portals on a single planet, especially one so heavily contested, if all races are fighting for it. <---See below.

Plus, they already make use of the Webway while in battle. Razz

Harlequin Codex:
Phase Field:
Using the Eldar’s most advanced warp
technology, a phase field allows the wearer
to shift between realspace and the
webway, ‘phasing’ in and out of reality.
This means the wearer can make short
teleportations across the battlefield. The
phase field is used instead of moving
normally. Nominate a direction for the
model to move in. The model moves 3D6"
in that direction, ignoring any intervening
terrain or models. A model using a phase
field may not use fleet of foot on the same
turn, but may shoot and assault as normal.

I just took that idea and experimented with it. If they can get into the webway using a device, as the Dark Eldar do with their Webway Portals, they can use the already existing webway tunnels to access webway gates nearby. And look at it this way, from an odd fluff point of view. Our map represents a colossal conflict, one like Medusa V. Such a conflict would incur massive loss of life for the Eldar and would be recognized by their farseers centuries, almost millenia in advance. In such a case, the tunnels that already connect the planet to the Webway could be utilized as long as the gates could be activated. This assumed they haven't collapsed, been infested by Daemons, etc, etc, but it's a reasonable thought. Of course, the creeps make no sense using this, but the Eldar will use the Pact of Isha to fight with the Space Marines, should it be necessary. And as for the Orks.... WAAAAAAGH.




cellrawr wrote:Fleet of Foot: My fleet of foot I already explained a bit. It goes along more with tabletop version of being able to attack in the same turn they ran. Since our heroes already can do that, I chose to translate it to this game by making them stay fast while being able to attack. Hell, the toggable part was the first thing that popped up in my head. It could have a set duration with a big mana cost for all I care.

Dance of Death: Her current Dance is based off DoW's Dance. Mine is modeled more off tabletops. Tabletops dance gives Harle's Furious Charge with Hit and Run. The crit part goes along with Furious Charge making them more brutal when they go in to melee, and the knockback goes with Hit and Run in that they get a chance to break combat (or they can continue, the knockback helps both). Don't rag on my dance when you were previously bitching about her current one! Mine at least tried to chang it while you just removed it.

Tanglefoot Grenade: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Harlequin_equipment
It's part of their equipment. It can easily be replaced with Hallucinogen or Plasma, I just liked the gravity one more and couldn't think of effects for the other two.

Holo-Field: Mine goes more with the fluff side (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Harlequin bottom of page) instead of the tabletop one. Tabletop gives it's the 5+ invuln save, which translates to her current straight evasion. Mine gives it the fluff effect of working better the faster she moves. Mine is an actual nerf to her evasion, cause it's more bitched about than anything else she has. It only get back around to its original percentages at max ms.

Harlequin Kiss: I want to keep it since it's one of their more fearsome and unique weapon's.


All of my stuff goes along with what Harlequin's have as their equipment and goes along as closely as I can with their fluff. You yourself said mandiblasters don't do what they are said to actually do. The only thing I found similar to Karandras in the codex actually were his stealth and biting blades maybe (I don't know what the +1S stuff meant, just the stacking part went along with ours).

Oh, and blood. I really don't see any other role for Harle other than a carry. Our Harle seems like it would be a Solitaire harlequin, since it doesn't travel with a troupe. Solitaires I read them being combat monsters, which carries are.


AND DON'T GET ME STARTED AGAIN ON THE WEBWAY SHIT! I already said the technology to make them is lost. Your ult just makes them magically be found right next to where they are fighting. The Webway ISN'T like the warp. It's a series of already existing tunnels. I'm not going with it magically having an exit conveniently where they want to go, within that short of a distance (across a battlefield at best).

Fleet:

What you're doing, though, is giving her a ridiculously powerful ability.
And I'll mathcraft it for you.
"For every 500 distance traveled, increases Harlequin's ms by 1/2/3/4/5/6%" The average distance from base to outpost is something like 7000-8000 distance. We'll use a mid-game example. Say she has a jetpack and moves at 340 base speed and has level 3 Fleet.

Spoiler:
1st 500 distance: 350
2nd: 361
3rd: 372
4th: 383
5th: 395
6th: 406
7th: 418
8th: 431
9th: 444
10th: 457
11th: 471
12th: 485
13th: 500
14th: 514

Why the hell is she so fucking fast? That's only at level 3 and only with a minimum of MS modifiers. You fleet to get into combat, but you don't move at lightspeed before that.

I'll even do it for you. It's very, very possible she could hit max movement speed at 3000-3500 distance, which is absurd. That kind of mobility is wrong, but when you give her a mana toggle to keep it, anything below 50% health is DEAD. Run, attack, attack, attack, dead, get thunder hammer, dead. You don't even need Tanglefoot unless you're low on mana. All she needs, with this skill, are a spirit stone, swooping wings, a sacred standard, a cyclic, phoenix lord, and life steal. Sacred gives 4% ms, swooping 60 ms, and phoenix lord 8% ms.

So at a base of 310, she goes to 370, then adds 12% to get to 414 ms. At 6% ms per 500, she goes from 414, 439, 466, 493, 522. Simply astounding. And even if you nerf it, she can just get a movement speed buff from someone and increase the increments at which she rises in MS.



Dance:

Here's my version of dance.

When attacked in melee, she has a 10/15/20/25% chance to dodge the blow, flip behind them, attack them for normal damage and a 10/20/30/40% chance to slice the back of their legs/moving appendages apart, immobilizing them for 1.0/1.4/1.8/2.2 seconds.

When attacked from range, she has a 20/25/30/35% chance to dodge the blow and leap forward 300/400/500/600 distance as she fleets to assault the unit. Gains an additional 6/9/12/15% MS and 12/18/24/30% AS for 3/4/5/6 seconds after she lands. Can be toggled off an on.

The reason I don't like your version of dance is because she doesn't need a crit to be effective. The %'s are a little low, and a 1.4x crit doesn't provide very much bang for your buck, with a whopping 6% average damage increase. But numbers are numbers.

The more significant worry of mine is the fact that a crit instantly turns her into a carry hero. If you can name a hero who has a crit (Grey Knight doesn't count) and isn't a carry, I'd frankly be shocked. Most Harlequins are not carries, first and foremost. They do not function in that role. Solitaires do, but this is not a Solitaire, is it? This is a Great Harlequin, the leader of a Harlequin Band, is it not?

She is first and foremost a ganker hero, and that's what she should remain, because the Eldar tavern already is renowned for its abundance of carries and Agility heroes aren't just carries, the last time I checked. Gankers do not need crits to gank. They need mobility control, both over their opponent and over themselves, and the ability to burst for that last 25% health of a hero. If you control position over a battlefield, you have essentially won half the battle by being there in opportune positions and times to strike the crushing blow.

Tanglefoot:

What's the point of Tanglefoot when you have max MS? It just adds more slow to an already fast hero who doesn't truly need it. If I were playing your hero, I would level the innate, dance, and holofield first, putting ults in when I get them, because those are the four skills that are the best. If you get enough mana regen, you neednt worry about the cost of the innate.

Tanglefoot is only good when your attack cooldown is equal to the time it takes to move between attacks. When you have max movement speed, which is possible in 2500 distance, you're already in position to strike the next blow by the time your attack cooldown has elapsed.

I'm not going to hate on the actual skill, because it's not that bad. It shouldn't do damage, for one, because it makes things trip and stumble. It just shouldn't be on this hero, the way you've made it. It would work well with a Mime Harlequin, since they're sneaky bastards and can setup well, but I feel you tried to combine too many good things into one hero.

Carries, in particular, shouldn't be self-sufficient often because it creates balancing issues. As I said above, if you give a hero a crit, a slow, and a movement speed buff, it's going to be a carry, and a self-sufficient one that can take people down from 80% health and down.

Holofield:
Errr. Where did you get this from: (Holo-fields are clouds of crystal shards that dance around proportional to the speed the Harlequin is moving. So the faster she is, the better it goes.)

I have this: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Holo-suit

And this:
Spoiler:
Holo suit
Rather than physical armour designed to absorb
shots and blows, Harlequins rely on a
sophisticated holo-suit to misdirect the enemy. In
game terms this means that Harlequins have no
armour save as such, but always count as if they
were in cover with a 4+ save. They get no
additional benefit if they really are in cover and
weapons which normally ignore cover will ignore
their special save. This also applies in close
combat and so they always gain the benefits of a
defended obstacle unless assaulted by an enemy
with grenades which negate cover. As it is a cover
save the Harlequins receive no normal armour
save in close combat. A holo-suit save cannot be
used against an attack that uses a template or
blast markers (such as a battle cannon or flamer)
nor can it be used to save a model if it is being
transported in a vehicle that is destroyed.
Models fighting a Harlequin in close combat can
become confused and disorientated by the evershifting
colours and patterns of a holo-suit. Any
model fighting a Harlequin in an assault halves
their Weapon Skill (rounding up).

Not to mention this:
Spoiler:

D-field:
A domino field, or D-field as it is
commonly known, creates an even more
complex distortion pattern than a normal
Harelquin holo-suit, shattering the
wearer’s image into a cloud of blindingly
bright shards of multi-coloured light. A
model wearing a D-field gets a 4+ cover
save, just like a holo-suit. In addition, any
enemy attacking the model in close
combat always needs a roll of a six to hit,
regardless of the models’ comparative
weapon skills. If the enemy has a fixed to
hit roll which is not affected by Weapon
Skill (Khârn the Betrayer, for example)
then roll a D6. On a roll of 1-3 they are
affected by the d-field and need sixes, on a
4-6 they are unaffected and use their
normal to hit roll.

The reason I don't quite agree with your characterization of a holo-field is because the holofield does not trail behind the Harlequin. It has a set radius which it blocks from, and while it may disorient the opponent, it is in no way amplified by moving because the general outline of a Harlequin is still there, unless we're talking about a Domino-Field, which is what I think you are. Even with that, fleeting or moving doesn't affect it. It just makes her much harder to hit while in close combat. Sure, things that are moving already are hard to hit in general, but movement doesn't exponentially increase her evasion rate.

Here's my version of it:

Domino-Field: (innate)
When the Harlequin stands still, she turns 15/30/45/60/75/90% transparent. If enemy units are around her when she is transparent and she moves into action, a bright burst of light emanates from her suit, blinding all enemy units such that they have a 20/25/30/35/40/45% chance to miss their attacks in a 300/350/400/450/500/550 AoE for 1/1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5 seconds. Has a cooldown of 10 seconds at all levels. Additionally, the Harlequin cannot be targeted by a hero unit while blinded.

Webway Tunnels

See above. Also, this shit isn't even finite by our standards of knowledge. Can you say with any definite certainty that the Eldar DIDN'T have tunnels already on this planet?

The technology to make webway portals happens to be in the hands of the Dark Eldar, which is rather curious, no? What was lost was the technology to build the tunnels, not the technology to access them. The Eldar have lost the ability to make Webway Gates the size of ships, but they haven't been idle. With their map of the webway, in the Black Library, which the HARLEQUINS happen to guard, the Harlequins know exactly where each tunnel goes and what tunnels are off limits, not to mention how to manipulate the webway.

The webway is not a physical thing. It's a dimension, flexible and malleable. If the webway tunnel is already in existence leading to the planet in question, then it's experimentally possible to use the "bandwidth" of the tunnel, for lack of a better term, to create mini, isolated tunnels connecting one Webway Portal to another as long as the structural integrity of the dimension is not compromised. If the Webway is one big sea, then this represents a miniscule canal between two or more extremely close points.

So let's address everyone's argument.

  • They don't create gates: Dark Eldar have you beat on that with Webway Portals.
  • They don't use the Webway during battle: They create wargear to do just that. Harlequins affliate themselves not only with Craftworld Eldar, but also Exodite Eldar and Dark Eldar. They have a much wider pool to mix and match technologies.
  • They can't possibly be magically found next to battlefields: If Farseers see that far in the future, and it attracts the attention of the Harlequins, who not only have mastery over the Webway, but also have a map of it, it's possible for the Harlequins to set up Webway Portals if the tunnels have been made. The Webway is a resource to be used by the Eldar, and if the fabric of the tunnels still exists, then it can be modified for use as long as the modification is extremely small.
  • There can't be magical tunnels to the planet where the map is set:
    Don't dispute the knowledge and technology of the Eldar. They were here long before the Imperium and did a lot more stuff than we could ever imagine. (In other words, this is "There's more in what has been left unsaid than I could ever say" answer.)


Do you have any other qualms with the fact that the evidence can be used to support the Harlequins being able to open Webway Portals? The only tripping block I have, which you'll pick up on, is how to connect individual webway gates to other gates, but I tried to fashion a reasonable explanation.

Here's my Webway Skill.
Ult: Enables the Harlequin to set down 2/3/4 Webway Portals across the map. Said Webway Portals can be used by allied heroes and the Harlequin to move across the map with a 3/2/1 second transport time. Each Webway Portal lasts for 240/360/480 seconds before it runs out of energy and disintegrates. Webway Portals are 100% transparent, but if an enemy finds out where the Portals are hidden, they too can use the webway to move around. What limits them is the location of the other webway portals, as they very well could teleport into the enemy's base.

When heroes enter the webway portal, a screen will pop up asking which webway portal they want to go through: Door 1, (2, 3, or 4 when they become available). The Harlequin's team know exactly where all portals are, as a number will appear by the Webway Portals corresponding to that portal. Said number is only visible to the allied team. When the selection is made, the transport time will then take effect. It is possible to transport a hero back to the same webway portal he entered originally, but non-hero units cannot use the Webway.

So here's my build.

Domino Field (Innate)
Dance of Death
Skill 2 (Probably going to be the tripwire skill I referenced up above)
Skill 3 (Neuro-Disruptor! Going to be a hard AoE nuke with additional effects)
Webway Access
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:37 am

im *solidly* against your proposed ult. it gives ridiculous mobility to the team.
that kinda power is just too much.

your arguments for webway access make sense, but that is too much sorry XD

and you say she needs to be a ganker, yet she's already a great ganker.
shes got the mobility and 'jump in and out' ness that your looking for.

mana costs and cooldowns can be modified Razz

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:35 am

I'd limit it then to the Harlequin itself, if team-wise it causes problems.

Errr.. You sure about that? She's an iffy ganker as it is now. She's more of a chaser than anything else in being able to spam Dance and Flip Belt, but I guess the two go hand it hand... I mean, her skills have a burst of up to 600 damage, so they do work. Mana costs and cooldowns are a crap fix for her, though, I

But what the two of you are mistaking for mobility is not the kind of mobility I'm discussing. There's movement speed mobility, which lends itself to carries mostly, but gankers need positional mobility, which relates to the ability to be in a certain place at a certain time. Of course, movement speed will get you to that place, but you still have to walk. I don't see her as the Flash, because then you just need attack speed to kill things.

Drop Pods are a perfect example of positional mobility, because they get you where you need to go in a quick time-frame. They don't make you any faster, but they set you up in the right place at the right time, which is even more important than having burst damage. Sure, you can move yourself into position, but that takes time, and opportunity doesn't wait for anyone.


And my reason for remaking?

Because her current skillset turns her into a pile of mush. SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM, that's what I see now. Gankers don't spam skills, they burst. Harlequins aren't able to hit 30 units in an area, what the hell is that? They're not combat deities. Harlequin's Kiss has long underwhelmed and either been really quite good (Stun) or awful (damage) at times. She can't do anything by herself late-game except dodge crap. Holo-field in its current incarnation makes Lucius and anyone with a single-hit spell, i.e. Pathfinder, Vindi, etc. cry buckets of tears.

She's not a spellcaster, so the mana costs need to go up.

And Grass, haven't you seen the constant whoring about Harle? First it was Son, but I'm raising the alarm because she's going to fail hard if we don't change her for the next update.

How do I know this? I've helped design or have designed almost all the heroes that are being remade. Numbers are numbers, but most heroes, if not all, got huge improvements over the last version. Like 60-70% of heroes are getting buffed in some way shape or form.

You're saying everything's fine, her skillset suits a ganker, but even so, it's not a very good skillset. Once mana costs are raised, she no longer can spam spells. Once she can't spam spells, she loses her effectiveness even if you increase damage because her current incarnation is designed at best to be a pest to most heroes.

I was even fighting Ray as Harlequin with Psyker and he should have destroyed me by himself, if what you're saying is true, but the only time he ever helped in a kill was when he first ulted me, then had Cell's librarian phoenix stun me and ult me, AND Orm's Zzap from Warphead hit me. And I'm RAKEL with 1400 health. Harlequin has lost a major edge off her game, and no amount of scaling up will save her from what's going to happen in the next update. She has gotten continual nerfing, and despite the odd games when she gets fed like a monster, she continues to get nerfed hard. The only possible reason for why she gets nerfed over and over and over is not because she's an Harlequin, but because of her current skillset.

The reason I prefer her now as a ganker is because I don't want to see more carries. If we continue to make this map a game full of carries, I'm going to leave because if we are so shallow and unimaginative that heroes end up that way, there's no point. I might as well get on with my life and put my imagination and time to something else useful. Read my section on Mandiblasters above. We might as well go play Anime Fight or some hero arena where the heroes do amazing amounts of damage and only have attacking skills. There are so many ways to make a hero, so many different options and styles and different means to achieve an end. So why do we come back to the same formula over and over and over? Because it works is a crappy answer, for one. We have so much material to work with as well, there should be no excuse whatsoever for our failure to elaborate on it.

There, that's my reason. tl;dr: Most heroes got better, but she shouldn't adapt?

/endrant

PS:
Spoiler:
First it was Yriel, now it's Harlequin. What the hell is it with Eldar and the fetish to make them into carries? Omg, they're fast and they hit hard, adhere to stereotype, done. Things are so much more multidimensional that it bugs me a lot when people make unbalanced/unoriginal heroes. Asurmen just isn't an agility hero, he's the Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers, who represent the concept of the Noble Warrior in not only their devotion to their people, but also their merciless approach towards foes. He was the first Exarch and the first Phoenix Lord to train others, including Jain Zar. His Diresword is believed to be the first ever created and contains the spirit of his slain brother so that he too could fight on against Chaos.

From that description, we get triggered evasion (Ok.), massive attack speed increase for a time (ehh, it works), a slow and dot, an attack speed decrease in melee combat, and a giant crit in melee range. How farcical. We really can't come up with anything better? The evasion is fine, the bladestorm I can see, and defend fits the concept as best as possible but Vampbraces slow for no reason, he has a blink for no reason, and very little of his actual personality and character are imbued into the character. It's like a Dire Avengers Exarch with extra abilities, not Asurmen.

You said design first for the game, then for the fluff, when in fact I see the two as intertwined irreversably. If you design for the game, you miss the fluff, but if you design for the fluff, it's not realistic for the limitations of the game. I know you can do a lot with code, Grass (Even a little too much, according to your wrist), but you've been holding the viewpoint that if it's not broken, don't fix it. When we make everything around it better, then it'll have to be fixed one way or around. Yes, the webway is a very cool thing. And I'd like to see it implemented. But I'd also like to see Maugan Ra even coded a bit. Or even any other skill that I've helped design.

The fact is, it won't happen any time soon, and there's nothing I can do about it. It's impossible for me to keep on making stuff that I don't see for another 3-6 months, because then I toil innumerable hours and for what? You toil so much harder than me and I respect that, but it's frankly not realistic to expect me to be the only person who has to address the 50+ some heroes running around at different stages of completion and expect me not to be a little annoyed at sme point. It's at the point where I'm going to have to stop playing the map to actually work on the map, and that's pushing it.

/endrant2
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by cellrawr on Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:31 am

It's late, so point me out to stuff I don't address.



Is there a seperate Harlequin codex that you didn't put in that torrent file? Cause I'm getting my stuff from the Eldar codex and the Harlequin/Eldar pages on Lex.


Webway:

Them being the guardian's of the webway does not mean it is something trivial to them, just that they know the layout better than anyone.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Webway
"As well, the technological knowledge used to build the Webway was lost during the Fall, and intact Webway gates are some of the Eldar's most treasured artefacts"

Why would intact webway gates be so precious to them if they could just make more if they were lost.

"There are Webway gates on many Imperial worlds, hinting at the Eldar's former power and dominance of the galaxy."

Them being on many imperial worlds does not mean there would be multiple gates in the area of a single battlefield. There would probably be a few over the course of the world, but not within such close proximity to each. Why would they waste their form of faster-than-light travel to only travel maybe a few miles.

Are you also suggesting that Harlequin's all know how to create gates, and can create them with minimal equipment to do so (I highly doubt a Harlequin's equipment includes the tools used)?


Fleet:

Numbers. You should know by now I put shit down. Mathcrafting for me comes when its needed afterwords. My rational for making her so fucking fast is because I removed ALL of her previous mobility. The skill doesn't have the increased attack speed current fleet does, so her damage output is nerfed slightly.

"Hell, the toggable part was the first thing that popped up in my head. It could have a set duration with a big mana cost for all I care."

You missing that part made you go overboard. This skill doesn't make her unstoppable RAWRRAWRRAWR KHARNE CHARGE, she can be disabled. It doesn't increase her attack speed, so shes not OMG raping you with autoattacks because of it. The thing makes her evasion almost reach current levels only when going at max speed, so shes only a bitch to hit minus all her flipping around she does. Stand in your base, she has to either try and tank it like she normally does or run away. Actually fighting her nulls the increased move speed.

Dance:

I don't like your version of dance since you added my blink behind effect and flip belt into her evasion, and made it all one skill. Someone could honestly just level dance, stats, and ult and do awesome.

The percentages are low on my dance because I have first hand seen how powerful the knockback effect on a agility hero can be. The skill isn't mainly about crit. That is why it's low. I didn't want to make it a mega crit since it also has knockback. If I did, knockback woudn't be there.

When you show me the troupe she is the leader of, then I will take her title of Great Harlequin into account. Until then she is Great Harlequin in name only, which is meaningless in this game. How she currently is, she fits best as a Solitaire. And what do you think all this ganking makes her mid-late game? The carry. She isn't the disable, the nuker, and her current skillset kinda actually fucks up the initiation of a team gank by knocking all of the enemy out of position imo. Her skills make her able to gank, but not make her only role a ganker. You cannot deny she has rape power when built up.




Getting tired, so just gonna sum up the rest.

Tanglefoot:
Its not for solo purposes. If the rest of your team can't keep up with the target and you can, bam, the whole team just had a better chance of catching them.

Holofield:
It comes from the Eldar codex I have and http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Harlequin.

From the codex
"Harlequin's wear exotic multi-coloured costumes at all times, and employ shimmering holo-suits they call dathedi. Similar in function to the holo-fields used by Eldar battle tanks, a holo-suit breaks up the outline of the wearer. Every time the wearer moves his outline explodes into a scintillating cloud of tiny fragments, and when he stops his image coalesces into a solid image once again.

From the Harlequin page on Lex
"They also wear 'holo-fields' and 'masks of fear'. Holo-fields are a sophisticated substitute for armour: whenever the Harlequin moves, their image is shattered into a cloud of crystal shards that dance and swirl around with vigour proportional to the speed the Harlequin is moving."

I don't know where you are reading what Harlequin holo-suits does, but my Eldar codex and their page says it does what I based mine around.

Sleep.

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:59 pm

Hmm... This is gonna be harder to do on my iPod... But it's easier on my wrist XD

gly, I agree with you about the ganker thing. I was originally against cell's version of dance. And the same thing with yriel btw Razz I always wanted him to be a ganker.
And as to other carries, they were some of the first heroes to be made so they're a bit simpler.

Anywho, sorry I'm prolly ignoring half your post, but I'm on the iPod so it's hard to actually check your post. I'm kinda gong off memory.

As to the harlequin.
She NEEDS, as a harlequin, dance of death, kiss, and some verson of holofield.
Do you agree?

We can start from there. Cause I see a lot of discussion but not a whole lot of effort to reach a concensus.

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:12 pm

@Cell

Harlequin Codex:

There is an official, albeit experimental Harlequin codex released. In addition, you can find any number of different fan-made, extremely well written Harlequin codices if you look around. While the fan-made ones are tantalizingly good, I mostly stick with the official one.

Webway:

I'd say you're simply underestimating what they can do with the Webway. Did you even see my phase field? They can access the webway with a tiny little piece of wargear, and with modifications from the Dark Eldar's Webway Portal, they have a handheld device that allows an individual to travel to and from the Webway.

Also, you really shouldn't hold dear all Lexicanum says. It's a nice source, but unless you can find a direct reference in the codices saying that they can't make any sort of device that allows them to access the Webway, I'm going to go with the creative freedom allowed me by the absence of denial. I didn't find the passage that says "intact Webway gates are some of the Eldar's most treasured artefacts" anywhere in my four Eldar codices.

Also, learn to read the quote. They can't make the tunnels that comprise the webway anymore. From what I've read, there's no basis in fact that they can't make the actual gates that connect to the webway. What the Eldar are guarding is not just the Webway Gate itself, but an entrance to the Webway, which is far more important than the wraithbone and psychotropic crystal that make up the gate.

Them being on many imperial worlds does not mean there would be multiple gates in the area of a single battlefield. There would probably be a few over the course of the world, but not within such close proximity to each. Why would they waste their form of faster-than-light travel to only travel maybe a few miles.

And please read my post. Did I not try to give an explanation about how multiple webway gates could be connected in the same location?

And I'm saying this particular Harlequin can, because she's the leader of a Troupe and has access to wargear and abilities that we can play with in our imagination. Perhaps a Harlequin has had the gates already made and just needs to warp them in using a certain device. Or the craftworld eldar has already made the gates and teleport them down to where the Harlequin requests. Also, look at the Phase Field.

Fleet:
Do you even realize what you're doing with fleet? I don't think you do. Attack speed you can buy, as Vindicare has shown us so gracefully. What it does is make her the fastest character in the game and the best chaser in the game without a doubt. If she only needs to move for 10-15 seconds to get max movement speed, she can just run in circles like a fucking idiot and gain movement speed for no reason. It's like giving Bloodthirster attack damage when he attacks, which I'm not fancying. What you do is make her a spastic character. And even if you nerf the numbers, she's going to be fast regardless.

It's like giving her a permanent movement speed rune 50% of the time, because she's always moving. No organism can continue to keep moving without rest indefinitely, which is what your Harlequin does, and she even gets faster. If you can't tell how much movement speed this is going to give her and how powerful a character with 400+ movement speed is...

If you make numbers for a skill, say that they're numbers, and make no attempt to fix or rationalize them, then the skill is still crap until you give reasonable progressions and limits. You can't hide behind numbers as your scapegoat unless you come up with something to fix your numbers. And when you have a value like MS that's dangerously tricky to mess with, it almost demands elaboration.

Dance:
The blink behind is a good concept to represent Dance, but it doesn't block spells, you know. If she gets hit by a nuke, she's still going to take a massive hit. What's your value on knockback? How does she knock them back? Is she super powerful? Can she knockback an Ork Warboss? Most heroes with knockback skills happen to be Strength heroes, because the reality matches their skill. I don't see a Harlequin being able to do so, frankly.

And she leads the Masque of the Dark Veil. There. Happy?

I'm planning to make the Solitaire an actual hero, which is why your whole business of making her all carry-tastic is rather driving my argumentative side.

Harlequins:
Great Harlequin
Master Mime
Solitaire
Death Jester
Shadowseer

And when she's not built up, she flails around pointlessly. She needs to majorly feed and hope to dear Cegorach that they don't come ganking her.

Holofield:
Again, cite the exact reference source that this comes from on Lexicanum.


Grass Hopper wrote:Hmm... This is gonna be harder to do on my iPod... But it's easier on my wrist XD

gly, I agree with you about the ganker thing. I was originally against cell's version of dance. And the same thing with yriel btw Razz I always wanted him to be a ganker.
And as to other carries, they were some of the first heroes to be made so they're a bit simpler.

Anywho, sorry I'm prolly ignoring half your post, but I'm on the iPod so it's hard to actually check your post. I'm kinda gong off memory.

As to the harlequin.
She NEEDS, as a harlequin, dance of death, kiss, and some verson of holofield.
Do you agree?

We can start from there. Cause I see a lot of discussion but not a whole lot of effort to reach a concensus.

Domino field = Holo Field
Dance of death = is there.
Neuro-Disruptor takes the role of Kiss, but I wanted to make a new skill using Kiss in a different format.

It would serve as a tripwire trap that she could lay behind and even a wire to surround and trap mobs in. Ever see the speeders and an AT-AT with their tow cables? Same concept. That option is available to her, or she could lay the monofilament wire across a pathway and wait for a unit to cross the wire, at which moment they would be ensnared and bound tight.

And harlequins are not bound to have the Harlequin's Kiss. It's a good weapon, yes, but it's not like every single Harlequin has it. Give the Kiss to the Solitaire.

As for a consensus, time molds and conforms, so I'm sure one will come soon.
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:28 pm

Cept I'm not so sure that a great harlequin would wait around with a trip wire... From the kiss no less. Keep the kiss as an actuall weapon. Don't go messing with it in such a way that (I'm pretty sure anway) the fluff doesn't even support.

Also.
Holofield / D field. Same diff. Either way it needs to deal with some sort of to-hit modifier.
Dance. S you said it's sub-par ATM. It should be active. It should displace the harlequin somehow. And for good measure it should have some sort of disruption ( this can be knockback or toss or anything ) I think it should be more than just single target, but not an infinate ammount of targets like it is now.
Kiss. I still think should be the ult. With Sufi or effects.

Other skills are allowable. I do like the webway idea, but not on the harelequin.
Despite your not-liking cell's idea ( which, truth be told, is a bit over the top - concept wise ) fleet does work good as another skill.

And you may not want to, but I'd like to stick to codex: Eldar as much as possible for his one. If we make a harle tavern ( which is not a bad idea ) then we can go to the external dex's.
And really, this 'great harlequin' is more like a troupe master anyway. The great harelquin and all your good ideas can come later.



( oh and point of interest, cause you brought it up, i have started coding maugan ra on paper, and plan to do fthe other phoenixes when I get bored at work.
And, your vespid hero is done for when I do tau. )

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