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[HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

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[HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Glycine on Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:28 pm

Asurmen:

Strength: 21 + 2.0
Agility: 26 + 2.4
Intelligence: 23 + 2.1

Innate: First among Equals
In the time of the fall, Asurmen led the Eldar into exile from the horrors of the warp. Upon the barren world they settled, he founded the first of the Aspect Warrior shrines, the Shrine of Asur. There, he would train the first Exarchs, the Asurya, who would later go on to found their own, now famous Aspect Warrior Shrines. Even though the Shrine of Asur is lost, Asurmen still remains first among the Phoenix Lords, both in prestige and power.

  • Skill type: Passive Toggle
    Asurmen can switch between primary modes of attacking, either using the Sword of Asur or the Dual Avenger Shuriken Vambraces.

    • When he uses the Vambraces, he will attack at 400/450/500/550/600/650 range and his attack will bounce once to represent the two barrels of the vambraces firing. However, he will only do 50/55/60/65/70/75% of his normal attack damage with both strikes. He will also gain selective manipulations to Lightning Strike, Evasion's Puppetmaster, and Vanguard of the Eldar.



    • When he uses the Sword of Asur, he will gain 4/8/12/16/20/24% bonus health, 0.1/0.12/0.14/0.16/0.18/0.2*Intelligence mana burned per attack (Not as an Orb Effect), and selective manipulations to Lightning Strike, Evasion's Puppetmaster, and Vanguard of the Eldar.
    </LI>



Skill 1: Lightning Strike
Asurmen, first of the Dire Avengers, wields two wrist-mounted avenger shuriken catapults, which are capable of shredding any enemy into bloody chunks of metal and flesh. It was he who perfected the art of the Bladestorm and who has evolved it still, into an attack that will rip the heart out of an entire army.

  • Skill type: Active
    Mana cost: 115/145/175/215
    Cooldown: 35/31/27/23 seconds

    • Ranged mode:
      Asurmen unleashes a full torrent of shurikens at maximum attack speed on all units within an expanding cone up to 500 range, with a total of 10/15/20/25 shurikens released. Each shuriken does 4/6/8/10 damage.
      All units hit will be maimed by the slicing and shredding action of the shurikens and lose 3/6/9/12% of their movement speed for 3/4/5/6 seconds.


    • Melee mode:
      Asurmen leaps forward into combat 400/500/600/700 distance, striking a unit for (Strength+Agility) times 1.25/1.5/1.75/2.0. He also gains a 10/13/16/20% armor bonus for 5/7/9/11 seconds.
    </LI>


Skill 2: Evasion’s Puppetmaster
Like a conductor, Asurmen can lead his force to and fro with the greater precision to dodge, weave, and parry enemy attacks. His attunement with the battlefield is said to be so great that most attacks seem to miss the unit he leads and the few that get through are blocked by a mysterious force field.

  • Skill type: Passive
    Range: 300/350/400/450
    The Eldar are well known to set fire to worlds to just save Eldar lives, and this theme of preservation echoes strong in battle. Asurmen combines the effects of a shimmershield with the array of complex movements to double or even triple the defensive capabilities of a unit.

    • Ranged Mode: For every point of intelligence Asurmen has, allied units gain 0.05/0.1/0.15/0.2% damage reduction. In addition, Asurmen gains the same amount as spell resistance.


    • Melee Mode: For every point of agility Asurmen has, allied units gain 0.1/0.15/0.2/0.25% evasion. In addition, Asurmen gains the same amount as movement speed.
    </LI>

Skill 3: Faithful unto War
Throughout the galaxy, Asurmen appears in times of war, fighting against the Great Enemy and others who seek to drive the Eldar into extinction. Ever since the Fall, he has known an existence of unending war without pause, and will continue to do so until the Rhana Dandra comes to pass.

  • Skill type: Passive
    As long as Asurmen remains in combat, he gains 1/1.5/2/2.5% attack damage and attack speed per second, up to a maximum of 30% attack damage and 60% attack speed. If he leaves combat, he loses 5/4.5/4/3% attack damage and attack speed per second.

Ult: Vanguard of the Eldar
Asurmen wields the Sword of Asur, a potent diresword with the spirit stone of Asurmen’s brother, Tethesis, embedded in its hilt. In the way, both might continue the fight against the Great Enemy until the end of time. When Asurmen strikes with the sword, the spirit of Tethesis flows through the blow and viciously attacks the target’s mind, not only searing it, but also trying to rip it away from the warp itself. That, however, is not the only weapon he bears, as his dual shuriken vambraces are renowned for their accuracy.

  • Skill type: Active Toggle
    Mana cost: 1/2/3% mana per second
    Cooldown: 14/10/6 seconds

    • Melee Mode: Asurmen’s melee attacks passively have a chance to silence for 1/1.5/2 seconds as well as cause 5/10/15% mana to leak from the affected unit if they cast a spell. The chance is decided by comparing the differences between the sums of Asurmen's Agility and Intelligence and his Target's. This mana leak will only trigger once per silence.


    • Ranged Mode: On 10/15/20% of Asurmen's ranged attacks, he will strike a critical part of their equipment, randomly reducing armor, attack damage, attack speed, or movement speed by 5/10/15%. This effect lasts for 5/10/15/seconds and can stack, each time refreshing the previous duration. In addition, he has a 5/10/15% chance to strike a critical blow, adding his strength as pure damage to an attack.

    </LI>


Last edited by Glycine on Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:22 pm; edited 7 times in total
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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:56 pm

only skill i like is Faithful Unto War, sorry

the innate is pretty much useless Razz
melee does nothing unless he has the evasion skill learned, and then it takes away from his team play ness (his only team play ness)
and ranged mode will deal less overall damage untill lvl 4. Its also not possible to make the bounce (or even the attack) have a chance to trigger orbs, and orbs will not even be able to be used with the bounce attack, and its not feasable to trigger it (and even then it still cant apply orbs to the bounce)

the first skill also isnt feasable to do (as you cant get the attack damage of a hero), so dealing attack damage to all enemies in the aoe wont work. not to mention its channeled Razz which is counter productive on a carry hero.

the evasion skill is either powerful, or redundant (evasion chance as well as damage reduction) at level 4, this skill gives an averate 31% damage reduction to all allies. (not to mention it gets even more ridiculous with the melee mode)

the third skill i actually really like

and the ult is completly out of no where and really wont work in the skillset as well as it could (int based mana burn and a silence, hes a carry not a caster)

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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by 13loodRaven on Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:07 am

May I ask why you're redoing the phoenix lords Smile

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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Glycine on Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:17 am

Because they're old and outdated.

And Grass, there is no one set design, one perfect way to make skills for a carry hero. As he was before, he was a carry. Now, he has a little more flexibility in what he can do.

I'll get back to the innate, but the evasion is supposed to be redundant, as to offer the best protection possible. The Melee mode ONLY affects Asurmen's individual bonuses, not the bonuses he gives to his team.

And the ult is not completely out of nowhere, seeing as you made the Diresword item. If he has 80 int at late game, if it procs, that nukes 320 mana, more than any other mana burn in the game. And as a carry, his biggest worry are disable-heavy casters and tanks, both of which suffer greatly if they are silenced.
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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:12 am

Them please reword the innate Razz its worded so that it only affects him. Its a little misleading
And the evasion is supposed to be redundant? Think on that statement

And the ult is very out of place on this guy. Its int based. Manaburn. And a silence. There could he very many better skills that could go there.
The rest of the skills have to so with his attack and this needs int to be effective. Of he wants his ult to be effective he can't get attack.
Also. You five him evaision for attacks silence for diaables and reduction for nukes. What is he vulnerable against?

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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Glycine on Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:16 pm

When he uses the Sword of Asur, the triggered evasion and damage reduction he gains from Evasion’s Puppetmaster is multiplied by 1.1/1.2/1.3/1.4/1.5/1.6x, but these bonuses only apply to Asurmen.

Really, Grass? Misleading? Are you sure it's not just you're being fail at reading?

The combination of the Evasion and Damage Reduction is supposed to act as redundancy for protection. Perhaps we have meanings mixed up, but this redundancy is supposed to be good such that both will synergistically help to protect him, whether it be from spells or normal attacks.

The Ult, actually, is not very out of place if you consider the multipliers I gave the mana burn.
Asurmen’s melee attacks passively have a 10/20/30% chance to burn his intelligence times 2/3/4 in mana.


Base int at:
Level 6: 33.5 = 70 Mana burned at a 10% chance, so 7 mana per attack on average.
Level 11: 44 = 132 mana burned at a 20% chance, so 26.4 mana per attack.
Level 16: 54.5 = 218 burned at a 30% chance, so 65.4 mana per attack.
Level 25: 74.5 = 298 burned at a 30% chance, so 89.4 mana per attack.

Considering he does not need ANY intelligence extra whatsoever for the skill to be effective, I don't see your point. It gets even more effective if you do give him a few intelligence items and has much greater potential than the item which it is based off of.

With Mana Burn, he has the potential to shut down any hero, as tanks can't use their special skills, other carries can't initiate as well, and casters simply can't cast. Considering the fact that casters are getting somewhat dominant, to the point where they can shrug off damage with mana shield, it's an excellent skill.

Of he wants his ult to be effective he can't get attack.
Errr, too early in the morning for you, I assume? It IS effective, if I haven't proven that to you already. Plus, because mana burned is a 1:1 ratio for damage, it almost serves as a critical in itself, so I don't see your rationale. He will do damage.

You gave Stern blind for attacks, extra strength for damage and health, an aura and crit that practically serve as pseudo-silences, and magic immunity. The only thing he's really weak against are ranged heroes who can outdamage him and keep out of his way and heroes that outtank him. The same applies to Asurmen.

Asurmen is as vulnerable as someone like Sigismund. While the latter is a strength hero, both have comparable stats and reduction values. Asurmen, of course, has a less health than Sigismund could, with Asurmen topping out at 1930 base health while Sigismund has 2190 base health. If we take it a step further and say that Asurmen will have 25 strength from items and Sigismund 50, then the divide grows.

Spoiler:

Asurmen: 2430 Health, 18 Armor
Sigismund: 3190 Health, 18 Armor

Now let's add reduction, evasion, and spell effects. Assume Melee typing.

Asurmen: 25% evasion, 18 Armor.

effectiveHP = baseHP * (100/(100-ev%)) * (1+(arm*0.06))
= 2430 * (100/75) * (1+(18*.06))
= 6739 effective health. Then I add 28% additional reduction from the second skill, which comes out to 8625 health. If we assume spell damage, however, then he has 2430 * 1.25 (Base spell resist) * 1.28 (reduction) = 3888 spell health.

Sigismund:

Sigismund also has a key feature on his innate, however. Due to its invincibility making him immune for practically 1/5 of the time he's out on the field, let's apply a 20% reduction to represent those effects.

effectiveHP = baseHP * (100/(100-ev%)) * (1+(arm*0.06))
= 3190 * 1 * 2.08 * 1.20
= 7962 effective health.
= 4785 Spell Health.

What conclusions can be made from the two? Asurmen narrowly takes less damage than Sigismund would from normal attacks, but Sigismund will take more damage from spells than Asurmen would and by a greater margin than the results of the physical damage test. Ganks by Casters who can initiate and disable Asurmen will defeat him, or at the very least slow him down.

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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:58 pm

Bonuses only apply to Asurmen. That's the problem Razz

By redudant I mean "more than is needed desired or required" its either useless to have both or too poweful bacause you have both

And from what I gather, most of his main damage output comes from his ult, yet half his skillset rely on his attack damage, which he has none of because he'll need int for his ult, and his other skills don't give him damage.
Also, the reason this ago hero is still able to make very good use of the ult is cause the numbers are way too high. You might as well make it a mamaburn orb of slow for all the effect his int will have on it


And I forgot half of what I was gonna day here cause I forgot my phone at the hotel XD

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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Glycine on Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:26 pm

*facepalm*

The bonuses from the innate only affect him, while other units still get their evasion and reduction, except at a lower percentage. What more would you ask for?

Err, what? He's still an agility hero, he has very, very good bonuses to attack damage and speed, and you're saying he'll have to focus on int? xD

Just because the mana burn procs off his int doesn't mean he has to pour amounts into intelligence. For one, it's impractical early game. You can't just build only intellgence without agility or strength, because that'll get you killed very easily when people who do focus on agility come to maul you early to mid-game. I could always shift the numbers down by one, to 1/2/3x, and even then it's awesome.

You look too much at the ult and see a skill that demands attention away from his normal role, when it doesn't. Yes, it can be quite good, but if he shifts to an intel focus, what will he do against hard hitting heroes who don't need their mana anymore to bash his head in, i.e. Kharn?

Agility modifies attack speed, his damage, and armor, so it's natural to go that path.

Lastly, look at Stern. His innate gives transparency as int%, and if people were smart, they could go complete intelligence with him and walk around the map unseen and able to gank at will. Except they don't, because he's still a strength hero who needs to tank. First answer these two questions before you start to comment on anything else, if I may ask.

Why doesn't Stern, with such a powerful innate, go intelligence based? Why are you ragging on Asurmen for having a skill based on something other than his attack damage or agility?

Heh, Grass. Might not want to leave things lying around.
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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:09 am

These effects (from the skill) only apply to Asurmen. You fill it in with from the innate I filled it in with from the skill. Its potentially misleading. I don't are why you don't just change it instead of arguing over it.

1. He gets no raw damage output outside of proc damage from his ult
2. His skills rely on his attack damage
3. His ult is only his damage output cause of the largely inflated numbers


Queestions:
He doesn't go int based because the innate's fade effect is only secondary. Its not as powerful as you think it is cause of shadows and health bars.
My issue Isn't with him having an int based skill, but the issues outlined above


What you need to do:
Drop the innate, change bladestorm and defend, and tweek the ult.

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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Glycine on Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:12 pm

OOC: You didn't even comment on my comparison between Sigismund and Asurmen. D:

I can't understand your grammar or your point, Grass. ^^; But I'll try.

What you're trying to say is that I should move the text description down for the melee bonuses to the skill, but dump the innate? Errr. You need to be either be more specific and exactly elucidate what you're trying to say or exactly tell me what you want to be changed on b.net, because I can't understand it very well.


Onto damage:

So you're saying that 1/2/3/4% attack damage and attack speed per second in combat doesn't count as a raw damage buff, albeit however OP 40% damage might be? And before I get any deeper, why are you caring so much about his damage when not all agility heroes should revolve around pure damage? It's not like he'll suddenly suffer from a lack of damage.

I can change bladestorm to some other base besides attack damage, but the form it's in .45/.46 is too good to remain that way. Early game, I can walk up to any caster in the game with level 3/4 bladestorm and kill them with 70-80% of success because that burst is just too much. Mid-late game, it's even more absurd as a building killer.

I can lower the percents on the Evasion and Damage Reduction, but then we're trending into statistically toxic waters below 10% for a level 4 skill.

I can make it such that he does 1/2/3% mana burn, if that will somehow ease your worries, but you were the one who said that hero skills should be better than item skills. If the numbers are the problem, they can be adjusted, but I don't see what's gotten into you so much about suddenly an agility hero having a skill based on intelligence.


He does not need to do carry type damage, he can be a solid defender hero who anchors the line and pushes forth for counterattacks.


Please, for god's sakes, comment on that statement alone. I need to be sure we're on the right page of how Asurmen should be as a hero. All of my changes can be made, but I need to be able to understand your replies.

Quick list of changes:

Innate: I don't know what you're talking about, so I can't drop anything until you explicitly tell me exactly what is to be moved or taken off. And I still don't think you understand the interplay between Puppetmaster and the innate. When he's in Melee mode, he and only he gets bonuses to Puppetmaster because you couldn't find an acceptable way to buff melee range. Really? 2 armor? 10 movement speed, 10 damage? Pardon my french, but that's a shitty way to make a mode better. You even acknowledge it. The bonuses relate only to him being in melee mode.

Lightning Strike: What do you mean you can't get the attack damage of a hero? How does thorns aura work? It measures exactly the attack damage of a hero in melee range and reflects a percentage back. Remember when you figured out how to trigger two attacks from a single hero, which you thought couldn't be done either? I may be completely wrong about the thorns aura, but things deserve a little more thought than saying it can't be done outright.

As for the changes, I can probably echo it off Skyray Assault, damage per blade, lots of blades in a cone, like Celestine's Flames except a lot more and faster.

Puppetmaster:
All units gain 4/8/12/16% evasion and take 6/10/14/18--&amp;gt;4/8/12/16% (for ease of calculations) less damage from all sources.

With melee mode and max innate: 6/12/19/25% evasion and damage reduction.

I personally think the evasion is fine, seeing as it's normal evasion. Assuming best case scenario, here are the options:

Spoiler:
Normal attack: 25% reduction from evasion to 75% effectiveness, then divide by 1.25 = 60% damage done. So he gets 40% reduction from normal attacks, and I will agree that is steep.

Spells: 25% reduction twice, so that's 36% reduction, increase of 11% spell resistance, meaning that a 400 damage spell that did 320 damage after reduction originally now does 256 damage.

So let's reduce the bonus modifier to 1.1/1.15/1.2/1.25/1.3/1.35.

Now we have 21% evasion and reduction, which leads to 35% normal damage reduction and 34% spell reduction.

So let's strip the bonuses to nothing and see what Puppetmaster does on its own.

84/1.16 = 28% normal attack damage reduction.

100/1.25/1.16 = 32% spell reduction from a normal amount of 25%.

Summing this up:
With max innate at current levels: 40% reduction of normal attacks, 36% reduction of spell damage.

With nerfed innate: 35% reduction of normal attacks, 34% Spell reduction

With no innate: 28% reduction of normal attacks, 32% spell reduction.

Now let's compare this to the current set up. Asurmen with maxed Battle Fate and a Holosuit is the closest thing to this skill.

25% evasion, 25% triggered evasion.

Normal damage: One miss every 4 attacks is equivalent to 25% reduction, and then that's reduced again. So 100/1.25/1.25 = 36% reduction of normal damage.

Spell damage: Same result, due to resistance, so 36% reduction of spell damage.

Both Asurmens need to be level 25 to pull this off, one needs to be in a particular mode while the other needs to have a particular item.

If my calculations are flawed, please use the same data as above and recalculate the actual reductions in both scenarios.

What I'm trying to say with the calculations is that I did the math, it's a little better on average than an equivalent Asurmen in current form, and please do the math before you start saying change things. The full math.

Ult: If there's no intelligence at all in the skill, get the hell off my nuts! Honestly xD. And your answer about stern didn't make any sense. People look at their screen before they look at their minimap. Mortred rapes the hell out of people, even though people know she's transparent, because the reaction time to something that we can't see immediately is noticeably slower than it would be otherwise.

On a side note...
Stern is AMAZING if you build him intelligence. Singing Spear, Ultramar, Staff, Sacred, 2x Spirits. I'm shocked no one has tried yet.

Stats:
110-120 +128 damage, 19.5 armor
156 strength, 91 Agility, 162 Intelligence.

Innate is 100% faded, with no shadows and only auras showing.
(Which you should fix, by the way)

Holocaust does 110+156 + 0.2*162 = 32.4% of their missing mana in damage. So if they're missing 500 mana, it adds 162 damage, 1500 mana, 486, 2500 mana, 810 damage.

Nemesis is just as good..
2.5x1.4x162 = 567 damage, and a 283 mana burn. The AoE damage on nemesis also bugs, so you need to fix that. It does very low amounts of damage.

He turns from a tank into a caster's worst nightmare. Plus, with mana shield to absorb damage, he can sit in front of an outpost and tank even more. At the very least, it's an acceptable alternative as a build. So again! before you say things won't work out, give them a try.

Back to the ult. As I mentioned above, % mana burn per attack is a viable alternative, or even nerfing how much damage the mana burn can do is still viable at its current rate, such that 20/30/40% of mana burned does damage, etc, etc.

I think that's good for now.


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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Son007 on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:10 pm

*Clear! Negative. Okay, charge to 300... Clear!* *Boop, beep, boop.*

Wow, that was a lot of text. I think you two have been doing far too long, and its become a fight of indirect insults, which I'm all for, but you two need to clam down.

*Hero Idea Time*

Innate: Maybe something that instead of making it a changeable range type, make him a melee with a range change... Gives him X second as range with stacking % slow. Something like ---> Gives Asurmen 10/11/12/13/14/15 seconds of 400/450/500/550/600/650 range. Each attack slows the target down by 2/2.5/3/3.5/4/4.5 (I dont know if you can do .X with slows, but something like that) stacks indefinitely, lasts 3 seconds after last stack.

Idk if its a good idea but maybe it'll work. It could be stacking damage instead of slow, like 1/2/3/4/5/6 stacking physical damage.

First: I like the idea of this skill. Maybe you could do something like ---> Asurmen throws out X (Something like 10/15/20/25) shurikens dealing damage and slowing enemies. Each shuriken deals 0.10 of Asurmen agi. Each one also slows enemies for 0.05% of Asurmen's int for 5 seconds. Throwing range is 500 all levels with a 300 cone.

Again, idk if its a good idea but maybe it'll work.

Second: Another cool ability, but the numbers might be a bit high for both with both. Could we do something like
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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:15 pm

Glycine wrote:
I can't understand your grammar or your point, Grass. ^^; But I'll try.

What you're trying to say is that I should move the text description down for the melee bonuses to the skill, but dump the innate? Errr. You need to be either be more specific and exactly elucidate what you're trying to say or exactly tell me what you want to be changed on b.net, because I can't understand it very well.
im trying to say that, where it says the bonuses only apply to asurmen, it is misleading because:
people may (in their mind while interpreting) insert "For Evasions Pupetmaster" after bonuses, forming this interpretation - The bonuses for evasions pupetmaster only apply to asurmen - while others might insert "for the innate" after bonuses to create this interpretation - The bonuses for the innate only apply to asurmen -
that being said, the innate does need to be scrapped (kharn has a passive 25% reduction vs all damage, and it was incredibly powerful)



Glycine wrote:Onto damage:

So you're saying that 1/2/3/4% attack damage and attack speed per second in combat doesn't count as a raw damage buff, albeit however OP 40% damage might be? And before I get any deeper, why are you caring so much about his damage when not all agility heroes should revolve around pure damage? It's not like he'll suddenly suffer from a lack of damage.

because his skills rely on his attack damage, and by time you build attack damage (after 10 seconds of attacking) they will be dead enough that using your skills wont make a difference anyway


Glycine wrote:
He does not need to do carry type damage, he can be a solid defender hero who anchors the line and pushes forth for counterattacks.


Please, for god's sakes, comment on that statement alone. I need to be sure we're on the right page of how Asurmen should be as a hero. All of my changes can be made, but I need to be able to understand your replies.
yes, i love this statement. he should be like the description:
"When in battle, Dire Avengers use their shuriken catapults to create an impenetrable storm of monomolecular blades. They have an uncanny knack of knowing when to follow this onslaught with a lightning-fast assault and when to carefully draw the enemy forward onto their blades. It is rare to find an Eldar force without a squad of these graceful warriors at its heart. "

however, your skillset is flawed!

Quick list of changes:

Innate: I don't know what you're talking about, so I can't drop anything until you explicitly tell me exactly what is to be moved or taken off. And I still don't think you understand the interplay between Puppetmaster and the innate. When he's in Melee mode, he and only he gets bonuses to Puppetmaster because you couldn't find an acceptable way to buff melee range. Really? 2 armor? 10 movement speed, 10 damage? Pardon my french, but that's a shitty way to make a mode better. You even acknowledge it. The bonuses relate only to him being in melee mode.
your current innate doesnt work, the self only evasion bonuses dont even apply unless he has the skilled learned, and he gets nothing else in melee mode; range mode actually reduces his overall damage untill level 4, and its not possible to use orb effects with it, and i cant apply crits bashes etc to the bounce. its not possible.
so it needs to change. i still think he should have a melee-ranged switch, but how you have it now doesnt do anything.

I can change bladestorm to some other base besides attack damage, but the form it's in .45/.46 is too good to remain that way. Early game, I can walk up to any caster in the game with level 3/4 bladestorm and kill them with 70-80% of success because that burst is just too much. Mid-late game, it's even more absurd as a building killer.
-paste-
Lightning Strike: What do you mean you can't get the attack damage of a hero? How does thorns aura work? It measures exactly the attack damage of a hero in melee range and reflects a percentage back. Remember when you figured out how to trigger two attacks from a single hero, which you thought couldn't be done either? I may be completely wrong about the thorns aura, but things deserve a little more thought than saying it can't be done outright.
currnet blade storm is not working, i agree. yours doesnt either. because you cant get a units attack damage through triggers. the only way to get his damage is by him attacking to deal it, and he can only do that every .34 seconds. which is max attack speed.
(to respond to your individual points - thorns aura is hardcoded, and the only way i was able to determin a single heroes attack damage (we are talking about o-shassera right? ) was by having her attack, simulating the attack and missle on another unit, then damaging that unit when the main target is damaged. this would not be usable unless the main hero attacked, so its not applicable to a spell.)
As for the changes, I can probably echo it off Skyray Assault, damage per blade, lots of blades in a cone, like Celestine's Flames except a lot more and faster.
this would prolly work the best, and if it functions like the (bolt launch) of ahrimans doombolt, then i can do whatever affects are needed, or i can even implemnent my projectile system to cover the effects of this (altho it might lag depending on how many missles there are)


Puppetmaster:

I can lower the percents on the Evasion and Damage Reduction, but then we're trending into statistically toxic waters below 10% for a level 4 skill.

All units gain 4/8/12/16% evasion and take 6/10/14/18-->4/8/12/16% (for ease of calculations) less damage from all sources.

-paste-

With melee mode and max innate: 6/12/19/25% evasion and damage reduction.

I personally think the evasion is fine, seeing as it's normal evasion. Assuming best case scenario, here are the options:
spolier wrote:Summing this up:
With max innate at current levels: 40% reduction of normal attacks, 36% reduction of spell damage.
With nerfed innate: 35% reduction of normal attacks, 34% Spell reduction
With no innate: 28% reduction of normal attacks, 32% spell reduction.

What I'm trying to say with the calculations is that I did the math, it's a little better on average than an equivalent Asurmen in current form, and please do the math before you start saying change things. The full math.
again ill bring up the kharn example - more than 25% reduction passivly is very very no.
an aura that gives allies that much evasion is also very very no.
i like the idea of the skill (defend made more teamplay ) this is the wrong way to interpret it (plus, asurmen doesnt have a shimmer shield )
evasion or damage reduciton aura is fine, but not both, and you cant boost it passivly on the hero, unless the values arent ridiculous.




I can make it such that he does 1/2/3% mana burn, if that will somehow ease your worries, but you were the one who said that hero skills should be better than item skills. If the numbers are the problem, they can be adjusted, but I don't see what's gotten into you so much about suddenly an agility hero having a skill based on intelligence.
-paste-
Ult: If there's no intelligence at all in the skill, get the hell off my nuts! Honestly xD. .
im allowed to change my mind! youve claimed that right before, so i claim it now.
the ult is ok, it needs tweeking, but LOWER the numbers.
the only reason its so good now is cause the numbers are grossly inflated.



OVERALL:
i like this description
He does not need to do carry type damage, he can be a solid defender hero who anchors the line and pushes forth for counterattacks.
he should not be a hard carry (and atm he cant be cause of the channeled and no static damage boost) but he should be able to fill a semi-carries role, while being able to defend against a push or an initiation and be able to build up a counter attack.
for this, faithful unto war (i think XD) works excelently, (altho giving him both ias and damage is prolly putting it over the top), as does the ult with a few key (And maby lucky) manaburns and a silence for defending.

i think he should have two stat based variables in his skillset, int and agi.
if he focuses agi, he would be more naturally inclined to go on the offensive (damage ias armor, maby some nuke damage in his skills i dont know)
and if he focuses int he should be more inclined to go on the defensive (the ult, perhapse some int based effects in his skills i dont know)
these are just some ideas

but atm, the first three skills do not work, and really need to be reworked
we can look into what son gave for some inspiration Razz


-i cut the stern stuff-
but as to transperancy: again, shadows and health bars (none of which are on the minimap)

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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Glycine on Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:30 pm



When you attack, you don't just attack heroes, Grass. You attack creeps, and I didn't define in combat, so here it is: Having attacked or been damaged in the last 5 seconds. Considering a normal wave push lasts from 1 to 2 minutes, you'll be able to easily gain 40% damage, seeing as you only need NINE seconds to get that bonus at level 4. The point is you don't normally kill heroes halfway across the map just by attacking creeps for 9 seconds.

Skillsets can always be changed, so I'll take some time this weekend to look over it.

As for the innate, that too can be modified, but I wanted to highlight how your current innate doesn't do anything for the melee switch. It's basically such that you play ranged for the whole game and farm up, then switch to melee to rape everything with 4x crits. Which is silly and isn't representative of a true switching hero would do. If he is to be flexible, then we shall make him that way.

For the Kharn example: Asurmen has a 25% triggered evasion. Harlequin has a 28% triggered evasion. Fuegan has damage reduction by a % equal to 4xstrength to all damage below 225. He can max out at 191 strength and take 15 damage from the fortress towers. Necron Lord can load up on regen and revive 15+ times in a row without restriction. Kharn's tooltips aren't actually fixed, so it makes it seem like he has a lot more damage reduction than he actually has. Flayed one has an absurd amount of reduction as well, which is being nerfed.

Are you going to scrap those as well? You took Kharn's damage reduction from 33% to 12%, which amounts to utter demolition such that the skill is but a shadow of itself and is hardly ever worth the mana cost to pull off.

All are pretty much equal to what Kharn had as damage reduction, and even more. But I have heard nothing in relation to those skills, so this brings me to this paragraph's point. You can't focus on builds and then ignore the bad that already exists. Even if I didn't highlight any damage reduction, all of the above heroes weren't slated for any changes besides Flayed One. So fix what's already in play first, please.

Dire Avenger Exarchs have Shimmershields. Asurmen is the Exarch of all Dire Avengers. He may not have it listed in his TT, but there's certainly a valid reason why he could have one. For a serious question, why do you think it is the wrong interpretation? How do you know? Is there an objective answer behind your reason? I just want to know. ._.

As for Stern, there are no shadows! Define what your shadows are, because I couldn't see them. Health bars, indeed, will highlight something, but Health Bars against Mortred really don't help you all that much. If he had any slow support whatsoever, Stern could tear any hero apart using his transparency to get behind enemy lines and either ult to block off lanes or gank. But do try fighting an invisible stern and tell me how it goes, since such an occurance is rare.

Also, with Son's idea..... I'm just going to flat out, politely disagree. Agility heroes should never, ever, ever have slows for not very good reasons. It turns them into automatic carries, and as we both agree, he's not a pure carry. Sorry. D:

I'll fix up Bladestorm and the innate, but don't expect Puppetmaster to be changed until you vow to fix the stupidity with damage reduction/absorption already in the map. And even then, I don't see your logic why both can't coexist.

Mathcraft it for me to prove your point. Otherwise, I'm not buying it. xD;





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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:08 pm

Glycine wrote:

When you attack, you don't just attack heroes, Grass. You attack creeps, and I didn't define in combat, so here it is: Having attacked or been damaged in the last 5 seconds. Considering a normal wave push lasts from 1 to 2 minutes, you'll be able to easily gain 40% damage, seeing as you only need NINE seconds to get that bonus at level 4. The point is you don't normally kill heroes halfway across the map just by attacking creeps for 9 seconds.

to be fair i didnt think about that.
also, can i ask that you fix that skill? Razz atm it gives both ias and damage, which is a double boost to dps.


As for the innate, that too can be modified, but I wanted to highlight how your current innate doesn't do anything for the melee switch. It's basically such that you play ranged for the whole game and farm up, then switch to melee to rape everything with 4x crits. Which is silly and isn't representative of a true switching hero would do. If he is to be flexible, then we shall make him that way.
pretty sure i already acknowledged that the current innate doesnt work Razz


For the Kharn example: Asurmen has a 25% triggered evasion. Harlequin has a 28% triggered evasion. Fuegan has damage reduction by a % equal to 4xstrength to all damage below 225. He can max out at 191 strength and take 15 damage from the fortress towers. Necron Lord can load up on regen and revive 15+ times in a row without restriction. Kharn's tooltips aren't actually fixed, so it makes it seem like he has a lot more damage reduction than he actually has. Flayed one has an absurd amount of reduction as well, which is being nerfed.

Are you going to scrap those as well? You took Kharn's damage reduction from 33% to 12%, which amounts to utter demolition such that the skill is but a shadow of itself and is hardly ever worth the mana cost to pull off.
so two wrongs make a right? Razz theres a reason that older heroes are being reworked
and i hope to god i didnt change kharns toggle to 12% at lvl 4, im pretty sure its still 36%



All are pretty much equal to what Kharn had as damage reduction, and even more. But I have heard nothing in relation to those skills, so this brings me to this paragraph's point. You can't focus on builds and then ignore the bad that already exists. Even if I didn't highlight any damage reduction, all of the above heroes weren't slated for any changes besides Flayed One. So fix what's already in play first, please.
Dire Avenger Exarchs have Shimmershields. Asurmen is the Exarch of all Dire Avengers. He may not have it listed in his TT, but there's certainly a valid reason why he could have one.
in the examples you poointed out, the heroes had evasion.
evasion for a single hero should never excede 30% (and triggered should be less)
passive damage reduction on a single hero shouldnt exede 25% (see - old kharn)
so the values on asurmen arent bad (even tho the skill is a little boring), it's its aura nature that makes it too much. giving creeps and allied heroes ~31% damage reduction is too much
also, i wont comment on the validity of the phoenix lords ditching their regular equipment (you wont see jain zar giving up the silent death or maugan ra giving up the maugatar Razz i dont think asurmen is gona give up his diresword/vambraces) but lets assume that this one will.


now: my idea/suggestion
(first, do you agree with my statement that he should be flexible to be built for both offence and defense? if yes, do you agree that agi should represent offense, and int defense? if so, this will make a bit of sense)
we need to figure out which of the evasion/reduction represense defend and which represents shimmer shield (Im pretty sure that the evasion is shield and the reduction is defend, but correct me if im wrong)
so then we base the shimmer shield value on agi, and the defend value on int (agi representing his personal quickness to jump in there and block a shot, and int his ability to comunicate and teach his 'defend' to his troops)
oh, and not entirely on agi/int, but like give the skill an "other-unit" base value which is (not significantly, but noticably) lesser values than regular, but these get improved by agi/int, and then we could give asurmen regular values with no stat boosts (or he could get the other-unit values as well, idk)

this way its still just a boring evasion/reduction aura Razz but its a bit more interesting than flat values


For a serious question, why do you think it is the wrong interpretation? How do you know? Is there an objective answer behind your reason? I just want to know. ._.
can you show me whgere i said it was the wrong interpretation? cause i cant find that D:



As for Stern, there are no shadows! Define what your shadows are, because I couldn't see them. Health bars, indeed, will highlight something, but Health Bars against Mortred really don't help you all that much. If he had any slow support whatsoever, Stern could tear any hero apart using his transparency to get behind enemy lines and either ult to block off lanes or gank. But do try fighting an invisible stern and tell me how it goes, since such an occurance is rare.
i suggest you turn your graphics settings up Razz transperant units still have shoadows and health bars and auras and buffs XD

Also, with Son's idea..... I'm just going to flat out, politely disagree. Agility heroes should never, ever, ever have slows for not very good reasons. It turns them into automatic carries, and as we both agree, he's not a pure carry. Sorry. D:
and yesh, i dont think he should have a passive slow. hes not a chaser, i think if hes on the assault, he should be more of a "leading the charge attacker"
not have a ungodly ammount of dps and no defnense thus requiring a tank, but able to definatly hold his own while under fire and still be able to deal some damage

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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Glycine on Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:01 am

Lol, Grass, you need to read things more carefully. I can lower the intervals of attack speed, but if I take out the damage, then it's Karandras's Blade except he doesn't need to attack the same target.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but you need to acknowledge that these things are patently wrong and that you absolutely need to fix them before we release .46.

He has his equipment. Vambraces function in bladestorm, Sword of Asur in his ult, and both are used as his normal attacks. The skills don't explicitly need to be named those weapons or items, because that's just silly at times.

Evasion is defend, actually, because defend goes something like "The exarch leads his squad in a flurry of complex dodges and parries to avoid enemy fire".


As for the interpretation...

again ill bring up the kharn example - more than 25% reduction passivly is very very no.an aura that gives allies that much evasion is also very very no.
i like the idea of the skill (defend made more teamplay ) this is the wrong way to interpret it (plus, asurmen doesnt have a shimmer shield )
evasion or damage reduciton aura is fine, but not both, and you cant boost it passivly on the hero, unless the values arent ridiculous.

I like your take on the agi/int divide for the evasion/reduction, though. For once we agree on something. Razz
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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:13 am

It doesn't matter what you do with it, but it should give both ias and damage cause they both increase dps.(example, don't actually do this) you could remove either the dmg or the oas and them double the other value and the skill would have (virtually) the *same* effect on him(of actually it would be better for him cause its balanced increase of both witch is the best way toincrease dps)

And flayed one at least is being adressed and fuegan at least needs an overhaul

And I'm not saying he doesn't have his stuff XD I'm saying its unlikely he would give it up to use a shimmershield Razz but I'm willing to overlook that Razz

Defend is evasion: oh XD I was basing my assumption on tt effects not fluff. But I'm glad we agree Razz


Also: tbh I don't remember at all why said wrong interpretation. Sorry

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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Glycine on Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:29 am

Necron Lord? Is he going to be addressed? That's really stupid, his revival ad infinitum. ._.

I'll start work back up this evening, any other comments on other heroes?
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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:33 am

do I need to fix the cooldown on his inmate? And I can definatly add a cooldown to res orb

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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Glycine on Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:50 am

Yeah, that needs to be fixed. What does Res Orb do, exactly? In relation to that cooldown. What does his level 25 skill for Res Orb do as well?

Speaking of bugs... Stern's Nemesis doesn't do its AoE damage as it's supposed to. Kharn's ult mega-ruptures, etc, etc.
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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:56 am

Umm... Its a summon and a resurrection aura. The resurrection can be given a CD for each unit or for the res part
The harbinger effect gives him the spyder summon and allows the res orb to affect allies at a lower chance

Are you sure nemasis doesn't work, it always has for me.
And remind me about Kharn when I get back

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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Glycine on Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:16 pm

Nemesis works, it does like 13 damage. >>
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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:18 pm

Oh >.>
Ill look into that of you remind me when I get back Razz

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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Glycine on Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:26 pm

Hmm. If possible, can we combine the summon and resurrection aura? He can't naturally summon them directly, but using the corpse of a creep and the resurrection aura, he can summon.
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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:31 pm

So... When a creep dies of has a chance to revive as a necron?
That could solve a couple problems

I just want to point out that you came up with red orb as it is Razz

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Re: [HERO] Asurmen, Phoenix Lord of the Dire Avengers

Post by Glycine on Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:43 pm

And it's a bit overpowered, because I always see the summons but no impact from resurrection aura.
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