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New stats for heroes.

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New stats for heroes.

Post by Glycine on Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:45 pm

They haven't been yet standardized, so let me get around to that. If I feel that a attribute focus needs to be changed or a variation, I'll note that with an asterisk.

New stat cap is 70, stat gain is 6.5

Forces of Order:
Imperium:
Cato:
Strength: 27 + 2.6
Agility: 23 + 2.2
Intelligence: 20 + 1.8
Librarian:
Strength: 25 + 2.2
Agility: 19 + 2.0
Intelligence: 26 + 2.3
Chaplain:
Strength: 24 + 2.3
Agility: 24 + 2.4
Intelligence: 22 + 1.8
Sigismund:
Strength: 28 + 2.9
Agility: 25 + 2.4
Intelligence: 17 + 1.2
Stern:
Strength: 25 + 2.6
Agility: 20 + 1.6
Intelligence: 25 + 2.3
Celestine:
Strength: 23 + 2.0
*New Base Attribute*Agility: 26 + 2.5
Intelligence: 21 + 2.0
Vindi:
Strength: 18 + 1.9
Agility: 24 + 2.3
Intelligence: 28 + 2.5
Rakel (Faire's Psyker):
Strength: 18 + 1.5
Agility: 22 + 1.9
Intelligence: 30 + 3.1
Commissar:
Strength: 23 + 2.0
Agility: 23 + 2.2
*New Base Attribute*Intelligence: 24 + 2.3

Eldar:
Eldrad:
Strength: 20 + 1.8
Agility: 21 + 1.5
Intelligence: 29 + 3.2
Prince Yriel:
Strength: 24 + 2.4
Agility: 26 + 2.2
Intelligence: 20 + 1.9
Avatar:
Strength: 30 + 2.8
Agility: 20 + 1.9
Intelligence: 20 + 1.8
Harle:
Strength: 19 + 1.9
Agility: 28 + 2.7
Intelligence: 23 + 1.9
Asurmen:
Strength: 21 + 2.0
Agility: 26 + 2.4
Intelligence: 23 + 2.1
Fuegan:
Strength: 24 + 2.1
Agility: 25 + 2.2
Intelligence: 20 + 2.2
Karandras:
Strength: 24 + 2.0
Agility: 27 + 2.6
Intelligence: 19 + 1.9

Tau:
Pathfinder:
Aun'va:

Forces of Disorder:
Orks:
Warboss:
Big Mek
Mad Dok
Runtherd
Warphead
Snikrot:

Chaos:
Khârn:
Typhus:
Lucius:
Ahriman:
Bloodthirster:
Keeper of Secrets:
Lord of Change:

Disorder:
Necron Lord:
Flayed One:
Carnifex:
Lelith:
Zoanthrope:
Void Dragon:
Tomb Spider
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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Grass Hopper on Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:53 pm

High base stays? No.

Also, did it occur to you that some heroes might deserve higher or lower stat totals?
Now I'm not saying that is the reason for some of the stats on heroes in existance, but no streamlining of hero stay totals

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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Glycine on Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:56 pm

I did think about giving Vindi less stats, but most heroes in the map are on par with each other. I mean, what kind of stats can you give a C'tan? Or a Greater Daemon? Stats generally have to be streamlined to ensure parity across the entire spectrum.

I looked at Avatar, and his stat gain total is an absurd 5.85 compared to Eldrad's who has 7.15. Really, Grass?
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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by 13loodRaven on Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:19 am

Dont you think Stern has too much of an int gain... With two actives and a toggle, he has alot of mana just sitting there... Does he have a new spell or something that I dont know about... ?

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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Glycine on Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:11 am

If Sanctuary starts draining mana per second to keep it balanced, he'll need mana. xD
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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:15 am

You can balance heroes stats of their too low (in the case of the avatar) but don't globally raise the base stat average

Hero stats end up being a personal preference.

If you think a hero's stats are too low, make a note of it and I can fix it (because tbh I was just throwing out stats for most of them) but I'm not increasing the average base stat total, and I'm very against streamlining the base stats and growth.

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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Glycine on Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:33 pm

Grass, a "personal preference" automatically makes some heroes better than others.

For example, the C'tan should have a stat cap of 80, while a Imperial Commander should be somewhere at 50. Do you want that kind of personal preference?

Kharn's personal preference would be to have 30+ strength, 28+ agility, and 12+ intelligence, but that's not exactly right, is it?

Personal preference goes two ways. You can either arbitrarily throw out stats, which is what you opted for, or you can try and maintain a realistic view of how heroes would be.

Space Marines would have more strength than average, Eldar, Agility + Intellgence, Chaos, mixed, Orks, strength, so on and so forth.

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What's your argument against raising and streamlining? You say no, but what's your position?
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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:39 pm

Average stats, average stay gain, total stats, and total gain, *for the map* are personal preference.

Which is why I don't have an argument. Its at a good spot ATM, and I've seen no need to up the limit.
You can tweek individual heroes' stats tho

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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Glycine on Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:34 pm

I'd counter with the fact that early game spells have gotten better and better to the point where 2 level 7 nukes can kill any hero that doesn't have strength as an attribute.

Plus, in the effort of looking through each hero individually, I'd essentially be standardizing the list because I don't want certain heroes a la Eldrad to get out of hand.

I want every hero to have the foundation to compete, not because they're lacking so much strength, agility, or intelligence that it takes a whole game of feeding to become good.

Yes, Commissar won't have as much strength as a Bloodthirster, as much agility as Jain Zar, or as much intelligence as a Lord of Change. But that's no reason to say no, because you suck, you can't play with the big boys. And before you say he has summons, pretend for a second he doesn't. Without summons, what is he?

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Grass, just because it works doesn't mean it shouldn't be better. You see no need, but when you have 400 health heroes who are almost required to buy strength items, that's just stupid. Plus, when the price of bionics skyrockets, because it has to, it is these low health heroes who have very little damage output early game who will find themselves hit hard. I want to lengthen the game a bit and not decide things in the early stage, but rather force people to work together to kill.
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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:54 pm

How many early game spells have gotten 'better and better'? I can count on one hand nukes that do more than 300 by lvl 7 (prolly) I haven't actually counted, but off the top of my head.

The majority of heroes are fine in the current stat averages. If it aint broke, don't fix it.
If a few heroes *must* buy bionics to even play, those heroes can be fixed. Don't force me to rebalance the entire map by raising the stat averages.

And wait, you want to lengthen the game?

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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Glycine on Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:18 pm

Rather, lengthen the critical period of the game such that more compelling fights occur, i.e. Mid-game.

I can count for you? xD

Celestine, Cato, Rakel, Stern (I think he can? Not sure), Farseer, Asurmen w/ Bladestorm, Fuegan, Pathfinder, Warphead, Snikrot, Keeper of Secrets, Lord of Change, Necron Lord, Flayed One, Lelith, Zoanthrope.

Those are all the characters, with normal skills or ults, that do over 300 damage with their nukes. Bladestorm is practically a nuke since it's max attack speed >>. If it ain't broke, then where does change and innovation come from? The car wasn't broke in the beginning, but does that mean people stopped working on it?

Lol, then what's the stat average that you play to? With Eldrad, it's 7.15, which is much higher than the 6.5 I put out.

I posted this in Cato's post at the top, if you didn't notice. 70 beginning stat cap, 9 more than current for standard heroes, and 6.5 stat gain, 0.4 stats more than for standard heroes. If you really think 0.4 stats is going to make a giant difference in the balance of the game, you'd better have a good way to prove it.
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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:42 am

15 heroes. A couple are non direct aoe damage (celestine) or aoe dot like lord of change or requires more than level 7 (lelith"s nukes).
So that's not a bad number.

You can't prove that this change improves on the existing numbers. Its a change, not better or worse.

As to eldrad, way to point out an exception to use for your argument. Now look at each other hero that has closer to .6 gain. Thanks

I noticed it in cato's thread, I ignored it for the same reasons I'm disagreeing with you now.

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Glycine on Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:37 pm

Part 1 out of 2.

Grass, it took me a day to type up all the stats and delve into the averages a bit.
Want to know what I found?

  1. 19 out of 38 heroes have stat gains 0.3 higher or lower than 6.0.
  2. 2 heroes (Lelith[7.25!] and Eldrad) have stat gains over 7.0.
  3. 13 Heroes have stat gains above or at 6.3. (Libby, Chaplain, Celestine, Psyker, Commie, Autarch, Harle, Aun'va, Big Mek, Weirdboy, Snikrot Angg'rath*, Lord of Change) *=I gave him 1.2 intelligence, since the zero won't apply in the future
  4. 4 heroes have stat gains below or at 5.7. (Asurmen, Void Dragon, Tomb Spyder, Flayed One)
  5. In relation to total beginning stats, 10 heroes have stats at least 3 under 60, Commie and Void Dragon as low as 53. 3 Heroes have stats above or at 65, with the highest being Ahriman at 67.
  6. There are 16 Strength heroes, 9 Agility heroes, and 13 Intelligence heroes. There are 14 ranged heroes and 24 melee heroes, not counting those that can change modes.
  7. The Orks have the highest average strength, the Eldar highest average agility, and Tau highest intelligence (Small sample sizes beware!)
  8. The Orks and the Forces of Disorder basically tie for highest average strength gain, the Eldar have the highest average agility gain, and again, Tau have the highest average intelligence gain. If the Tau are ignored, the Imperium would barely take both categories for intelligence.
  9. Intelligence heroes, on average, will have the highest sum stat gain, while Agility heroes will have the highest beginning stat total by a tenth of a point over Strength heroes.


That's just the beginning. So many questions and comments pop up from doing this list, some quite shocking.

1. When you say,
Average stats, average stay gain, total stats, and total gain, *for the map* are personal preference
do you mean your personal preference and yours alone? Because, well.. your stat gains are almost illogical. Ahriman has higher intelligence gain than a Lord of Change? A Sanctioned Psyker has higher intelligence gain than Ahriman? Really?

These situations happen over and over and fucking over where stat gain and total stats don't seem to match the character that has them, which is why I'm bringing it to your attention. It's not just individuals but a systemic failure to double-check exactly what you're putting in and what that should be compared to. Is THIS a good spot?

To give you credit, the average total stats came to 59.34210526 and the average total stat average came to 6.168421053. Exactly 5 times did a hero have a stat gain equal to 6. In fact, when I was doing my calculations, lots of averages didn't tell me a whole lot, because a lot of the data was masked by many heroes who had low stats and many heroes who had high stats.

Here's my chart, if you want to take a look.
megaupload.com KL2TIRAX

2. Some key things I noted:

- How is it a Keeper of Secrets is a full point gain of agility below a Harlequin? Even Lucius and Celestine have more Agility than him... >>

- Why does Typhus's intelligence suck even though he's a psyker? It's bringing down his stat gain total heavily. In addition, his total stats are low, which is a double whammy?

- You had a very distinct pattern for tanks, above average strength, below average agility and intelligence. I see it in Avatar, Typhus, and Carnifex, but what I'm wondering is why didn't you lower the strength gain and increase another stat? Or even bring their stat gains up to 6 in the first place?

- There needs to be a baseline set for stat gains and totals. Otherwise, you have situations that make very little sense, even gameplay wise.

Here's how I would do it. Start with the very epitome of the stat you're adjusting, like Bloodthirsters and Carnifexes for Strength, then move downwards. Most Orks and Space Marines would then have above average strength, while the Eldar, Necrons, and other Chaos forces would have average strength. Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, and Tau would have below average strength, except for Battlesuits and the like. Vice versa for Eldar and Agility.

Intelligence is a bit trickier, since you have psykers to worry about, but it shouldn't be any more of a hassle. The highest stat would be 3.2, the lowest stat 1.6. Some particular heroes, like a Vindicare Assassin, could conceivably not hit your stat total and gains, but these are special cases.

- Necrons are so weak, both in stat gain and total stats.

- There are way too few agility heroes. 1/3 of them have skillsets based on the strength stat and for these heroes, life isn't too much of a problem, but if they didn't, life would be an issue a la Karandras.

Part 2 will contain the chart with the changes I would make and other comments.






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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:16 am

When I day person preference, I do mean my personal preference. But I mean I want the heroes to have (on average) the stays they have now.
I'm fully aware that I didn't think much about stays when I gave them, and I didn't follow a guideline for giving them out. This causes iregularities like ahriman etc. When these cases come up, all is required is a simple "grass, nerf/buff this hero's stats"

Also, I. Will. Not. Globally increase the stat average. Doing so *would* be a change just for change's sake which would globally affect the balance of the map. It would be neither an improvement nor a (opposite of improvement here... I have no idea what that is -.-)

As to your point #2, your walking dangerously there cause your comparing stats based on fluff. Why is it fair that guardsmen heroes get less stats than space marine or daemon heroes?
Now I did keep that in mind when creating the heroes (you figured that out while running averages) but ultimatly the skillset and role should affect a statline more than fluff does.


Now, there are problems with the stats on *some* heroes, which should be fixed. But not a change to all of them

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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Fairemont on Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:27 am

You two make such a cute couple!

Regardless, a map requires balance irregardless of fluff and/or personal preference. Ahriman should occasionally get lit up by some scrubby guardsman just because of balance sake. If he didn't, guess what... the c'tan would just slaughter everyone and eat the planet.

Most heroes will require stats based upon skill and role. If a strength hero is heavily dependant upon mana draining skills, it might be pertinent to start high strength and have low int but give int a larger stat increase to keep up with mana costs etc etc.

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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Glycine on Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:18 pm

I know we make a wonderful couple, Faire, but that doesn't mean all that much. xD

Grass, if you didn't care all that much about the numbers when you put them in in the first place, how can you judge suddenly that the situation is ok? It's like building a house and forgetting to finish various internal tasks, like putting in cabinets or getting plumbing to a bathroom. The house may look passable on the outside, but when you really delve into it, it's a mess. Stat distributions are not finished nor entirely balanced. That's a fact.

For why I'm changing it, I believe the stat cap we have now is too constricting to heroes early. Mana costs will continue to go up as we balance, I already noted damage (15 heroes is a lot, Grass. May not seem like a bad number to you, but it is a noticeable amount), and heroes deserve the chance to expand their stat lines a few points to address deficiencies. It's not like the stat lines are perfect, right?



How can you know the balance will become screwed up when I haven't suggested my final numbers and the number change is so minuscule? If the average stat gain is 6.1, an 0.4 increase over 24 levels adds 9.6 stats total, so the maximum change would be either an increase of 200 health, 1 armor, or 250 mana, all mutually excluding. If it was split evenly across 3 stats, it would add 60 health, 0.3 armor, and 75 mana. A very small amount end-game, but a potentially helpful one early.

If I increase the total amount of stats to 65 across the board, lots of heroes will have the chance to address a defect or accentuate a stat. It's refining the stats to better fit the hero and his/her gameplay.

I fail to see the balance upheaval, you're talking about, though.

As soon as I cite fluff, you sound the alarms, but I'm used to that by now. xD

Did you read exactly what I wrote? Because it sounds like you read the portion about the strength stat and applied it to all stats. If a commissar has less strength than a Bloodthirster, he inevitably will make up for that in his other two stats such that the two are on par.

I'm not stupid enough to ignore balance, and from the start, I wanted to standardize the heroes such that all heroes more or less had the same totals for their stat lines, applied in different ways.

______________________________________

Yes, the skillset and role should play a part in stat distribution, but fluff also has to share an equal role.

And it's not just some. I have to revamp every hero, almost, because roles and skillsets have changed and the fluff has as well.

Changes after the break...


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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Fairemont on Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:54 pm

Fluff should have a small, actually... very small part to play. Balance is the main thing. Fluff will lead to the characters role, which is determinate of the stats, which is determinate of the balancing.

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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Glycine on Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:11 pm

So fluff determines role which determines stats which determines balancing.

It has a small role to play in terms of balance, but that's because the fluff and balance don't exactly play well in the 40k universe. That said, if you ignore the fluff, you are allowed to arbitrarily decide a character's role, which may turn out well, if you take that approach. I don't, though. xD

We're lucky most characters fit some sort of mold, but not all of them do.

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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Fairemont on Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:52 pm

You have to sort of realize... if there wasn't balance... you'd have one character that rapes every other character sideways, and then characters no one wanted to touch. You NEED to ignore fluff in preference of balancing on a map like this where it is the absolute MUST. You might not like it, but its how it goes.

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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Glycine on Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:06 pm

*facepalm to the max*

Didn't I just say I wasn't stupid enough to ignore balance?

I don't want fluff to replace balance, because then that would be a hero arena. I want fluff to have its say and a little bit of common sense to go with fluff. Did I suggest that Kharn have 666 strength or something? ._.

I completely support balance. But if we are making a themed map, we should hold ourselves a little, just a little to what we take the material from. Don't know where you get the impression that I want to take away balance completely...

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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:21 pm

Ok, let's clarify then. Don't globally buff starting stats. Heroes don't die all the time in level's 1-3. And beyond that stat gains take over.
And let's look at gains dom this angle I'd they don't affect that much, why so it in the first place? 9.6 stays over 24 levels give less than 1 stat by level 10.

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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:25 pm

Ok, let's clarify then. Don't globally buff starting stats. Heroes don't die all the time in level's 1-3. And beyond that stat gains take over.
And let's look at gains dom this angle I'd they don't affect that much, why so it in the first place? 9.6 stays over 24 levels give less than 1 stat by level 10.

I do agree that some heroes need help, and some nukes are ppweful, but it doesn't call for a global rebalance. Its like rebuilding the house cause of a leaky pipe and a damaged wall.
We need to identify the heroes that suffered cause of my random numbers and fix them.


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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Fairemont on Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:31 pm

RAWR RAWR RAWR RAWR

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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Glycine on Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:46 pm

I wanted to fix total stats originally, because that's where the lowest values typically are, but some total stat gains just don't make sense, hence why I wanted to raise them or at least level them. I'd be happy enough if stats were standardized to 61 and 6.1, but you've already ruled that out. Certain heroes also need stat lowering and raising to balance them out completely.

Some heroes also need attribute changes for improvement and general sense.
Here would be my list:
Celestine --> Agility
Pathfinder --> Agility (Stealthy, advance scout. Intelligence makes him too powerful via spell/missile spamming. Speaking of which, seeker missiles need to incur a mana cost of some sort.)
Yriel --> Strength (We talked about this)
Fuegan --> Strength (We also talked about this)
Necron Lord --> Intelligence (Better suits his playstyle and will reduce his survivability a lot, a needed nerf)

*throws a bone to Faire*

And I will find those heroes and fix them.
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Re: New stats for heroes.

Post by Fairemont on Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:11 am

I don't like bones... Sad

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Re: New stats for heroes.

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