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reworking outposts

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reworking outposts

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:01 pm

Ok so, outposts need a bit of a tweeking in their current form (in pretty sure the lane outpost is stronger than the base outpost)

So I propose this (and ask for some numbers from you guys)

Base outpost HP to _2500_
Normal outpost HP to _2000_
Mini outpost HP to _1500_
Outpost armor to __10__

Outposts themselves gain a phoenix fire attack that fires every 1.5/.75/.38 seconds, dealing 100 damage.
The cooldown of this skill decreases from mini to base outpost.

Mini outposts (instead of the cannon) gain 4 'guardian' units on each side.
These units function as towers in all but model and name (but are subject to spells that target units).
They would occupy the place where outer walls would be, and mini outposts would gain some sort of barricade.
They are stationary and respawn 30 seconds after they are killed
Stats to be debated
defense: 700 hp, 4 large armor
attack: ranged unit range, 25-31 piercing damage, 1.25 attack cooldown

IMO, the units should be sternguard veterans and flash gits (using the marine and chaos space orc modles respectively)

Lane outposts would have their towers moved to the outer walls, far enough that the towers wouldn't be able to target the outpost itself.
They would become destoryable and be rebuilt while the outpost is neutral only.
They would keep the same damage.

Base outposts would have both the guardian units and the outer towers, but in a staggered fasion with the guardians being like a 'first wall' and the towers being a 'second wall'
There would be more guardians (6) and more powerful towers at the base outposts

my poor attempt at text drawing:
(these only show in one direction, but assume the set ups shown below apply to all entrances to the outpost

(mini outpost)
Spoiler:


Code:

(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)
    {D                  D}
    {D      (----)      D}
            |    |
    {D      (____)      D}
    {D                  D}
(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)
where:
D is a defenter
{ or } are baricades
the thing in the middle is the outpost
(T) are trees (or the natural edges of the lane)

(lane outpost)
Spoiler:


Code:

(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)
<-                    |}
<-        (----)      (t)
<-        |    |
<-        (____)      (t)
<-                    |}
(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)
where:
(t) is a tower
|} are the walls
the thing in the middle is the outpost
(T) are trees (or the natural edges of the lane)
<- indicates the direction to the base


(base outpost)
Spoiler:


Code:

(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)
<-                    |}          D}
<-        (----)      (t)          D}
<-        |    |
<-        (____)      (t)          D}
<-                    |}          D}
(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)(T)
where:
D is a defender
(t) is a tower
} is a barricade
|} are the walls
the thing in the middle is the outpost
(T) are trees (or the natural edges of the lane)
<- indicates the direction to the base

Comments welcome


Last edited by Grass Hopper on Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:48 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: reworking outposts

Post by Glycine on Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:39 pm

First off, health.

Mini: 1000, 5 fort
Lane: 1500, 10 fort
Base: 2000, 15 fort

Aesthetics:

Mini-outposts should get the elven house/tower model.

Lane outposts can stay the same.

Imperium base outposts: I found our titan? It looks really cool as a building.

Ork base outposts: Please, please, squiggoth? Makes so much sense as a outpost for the orks.

The Phoenix fire attacks should only be available at lane/base outposts.

I like your plan for the guardians at mini outposts.

Two problems with the lane outpost and towers. One, all the towers cannot attack the same target or even near the same target. Without focus fire, melee units gain a bonus, since only 2 towers will attack them, compared to 4 earlier. Also, there's lots of dead space if you move them on the outskirts, since the towers obviously can't fire into trees. You're spreading your coverage too thin, even with the extra support.

I'm fine with the base, because you have extra units to cover that missed space, but do they have corpses? Ahriman/Lord of Change/Void Dragon would screw defensive arrangements so hard.

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Re: reworking outposts

Post by cellrawr on Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:28 pm

I would actually suggest that the Base outpost's guardian units be moved to the Lane outposts, and go with Glys suggestion of replacing the Base outposts models with the Titan and Squiggoth. Have them able to attack to make up for the loss of the guardians (so pretty much like the guardians, just make them not vulnerable to unit targeting spells since they are actual bases). <.< It wouldn't make sense to me that a Titan and Squiggoth couldn't defend themselves if they were put out into the open. I suggest putting the Lane outpost guardians in the same placement as you wanted the Base outpost, to take care of the uneven tower damage that gly pointed out.

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Re: reworking outposts

Post by Glycine on Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:53 pm

The towers in both lane and base outposts are on the side, which is bad if they can't even hit the outpost. How about this, though?

If you tilt the outpost 90 degrees, make a barricade in the form of a triangle, place the tower inside the triangle, put defenders near it, and repeat 3 more times.

It'll look like a diamond and give the towers more exposure as well as present a much tougher target to face.

Here's a novel idea, though. Each side has 5 outposts at the start. Allow three players to direct the guardians at the lane outposts, like give them spells and actions to do but no focus firing. The two best players would handle the base outposts, which would have its own spells and be able to move within its area, but not past it. Heroes can use their gold and honor to unlock bonuses for their particular outpost, like additional defenders, a quick repair, etc, etc.

The trio of players directing the lane outposts can access and upgrade any of their bases, while the duo can do the same with the two base outposts.

In this system, and the system in the game as a whole, honor should be used to unlock bonuses and hireables, not spent and used up. So if I have 3 honor, I can unlock the next level of a Fire Dragon Exarch, with more stats.

If you buy a hireable, it automatically upgrades it according to the level of honor you have. If you hit ten honor, you spawn two units for the price of one, 20 honor, three units for the price of one. If I buy a durability upgrade, I spend gold, but the amount of armor I get depends on how much honor I have.

See my point? It gives people a stake in what they defend and an ability that would reshape the way we see an AoS. It's territory-building, strategic defense and attack, and proper management of resources.
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Re: reworking outposts

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:43 pm

i like your ideas gly, but they are maby just a little outside of the realm of aos (as in, base control, not the control of a single hero) lets see if we cant work develop that idea some more and make it fit, cause i definatly like that idea.

also, the *outposts* would gain an attack of sorts, which would make up for the loss of towers on the outpost it self. The towers would move to the outside of the outpost perimeter, adding another layer of defense (because theses towers can be destroyed before attacking the outpost itself)
the phoenix fire on the outpost should do roughly the same dps as the towers that were on the outpost previously.
i gave the guardian units to the mini's, cause they would act as the lowest level of defense. The towers act as the next level of protection, having alot of hp and armor. Then the base outposts would get both, for effectivly 2 layers of defense before attacking the outpost itself.
(because atm, the base outpost is weaker than the lane outpost)
and using cells idea, the lane outposts would stay more powerful than the base outposts cause they have both guardians, towers, and the outpost phoenix fire, while the base outpost would only have towers and the phoenix fire.


on the honor stuff gly, i suggest you write that down Razz cause thats what honor should be like.
the only issues tho is a *large* excess of honor. most things in the game atm are scaled to about 5-6 honor, with 10 being a ton. the moment a hero gets more than 10 honor, it becomes useless. This is why somethings *cost* honor instead of requiring it.

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Re: reworking outposts

Post by Glycine on Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:55 pm

Items should stay at around 5-6 honor, but let's say certain features are unlocked around the map at higher amounts of honor.

For example, if you have 10 honor or higher, your drop pods won't scatter. Other assorted bonuses would be available, if we imagine them up. Few people will ever get to 10 honor, though, unless it's a back and forth type of game.

And the stuff about the honor is already written down?

I'll begin typing up stats and logistics tomorrow.
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Re: reworking outposts

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:10 pm

teleport homers >.>

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Re: reworking outposts

Post by Glycine on Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:19 pm

Why make people buy them when you can earn them? xD A little of a stretch, but teleport homers allow things to teleport onto you and they usually have to be on an individual near where you're porting anyway.
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Re: reworking outposts

Post by cellrawr on Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:40 am

I was actually meaning the Base outpost having it's own attacks, like night elf ancients do (except not with the whole rooted thing <_<). I overlooked the phoenix fire ability, but to make the Base more powerful you could give it phoenix fire, towers, and its own attacks. I don't see how the guardians, which you said would be the lowest level of defense, should be on the most important base instead of the lesser lane one. The Base outposts attack would be a lot more than the guardians, so it wouldn't be weaker than the Lane outpost.

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Re: reworking outposts

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:56 am

because the guarddians function as a 'layer' of defense that must be breached before being able to attack the outpost.
edit: i think i might be misunderstood on the setup here. itll be a 'wall' (more like barricades) with guardians behind it, then after that, almost out of range, would be the towers, then almost out of range of the towers behind that would be the outpost. It would be a 3 level thing, not all the defenses gathered around the outpost in the same spot

the mini outposts have just the guardians, giving them a minimal layer of defense.
the lane outposts have the towers, giving them a strong layer of defense.
the base outposts have more guardians, and the towers, giving them two layers of defense.
the phoenix fire ability gets stronger the closer to the base the outpost is. mini ones would have dps equal to about the single tower they have now, and the base outpost would have a phoenix fire that would deal about the same dps as a lane outpost does now (4 towers > 2)

having the base outposts without the guardians would make it easier to take than the lane outpost, which shouldnt be the case

and the phoenix fire would be the equivalent of an attack, except phoenix fire doesnt target one unit untill it dies.



and @gly: because teleport homers should be available right off the bat, instead of requiring a certain amount of honor.
its a good idea to have certain bonuses unlocked, but not telrport homers Razz.

also, honor bonuses shouldnt apply directly to the hero (like with 5 honor, you gain X damage - as an example) cause that just starts heading down the 'the strong get stronger' path

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Re: reworking outposts

Post by Mortis on Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:59 am

I hesitate around the idea of the guardians not moving. For example, are troops just going to stand there as they get shot down? No... They will move around to bring fire to bear as much as possible, trying to get the advantage. Perhaps give units around a base an armor bonus or something to represent the fact that it is a defensive works?
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Re: reworking outposts

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:05 pm

you have to sacrifice some realism when it coems to a game Razz

and the guardian units will have increased armor because they are 'dug in'

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Re: reworking outposts

Post by Mortis on Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:40 pm

Well, to make it easier, why not simply have an outpost 'stop' creeps from moving past, acquiring a garrison from troops spawning/moving through the outpost, and gives the ones inside an armor bonus? Then we dont need to seriously rework the outposts, and it adds a bit more realism to the idea? Just give it a set number, then have it stop that many creeps to hold as a garrison, and set them on patrol within the area of the garrison? Nice and simple, all you need to do is add something like bonus armor, damage, or a better life/regen.
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Re: reworking outposts

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:14 pm

Heh. While I *do* like that idea, its actually harder to accomplish that simple static respawning troops.
And having lane creeps garison outposts would weaken the spawn, giving the other team even more of an advantage if they kill your garrison

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Re: reworking outposts

Post by Mortis on Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:32 am

Not quite... The waves would be the exact same grass, with each wave getting sucked in to garrison outposts equally on both sides. Think about it, with an Hp Regen buff, damage buff, and armor buff for being in the garrison, Static waves should not be able to automatically push through without some kind of Hero based intervention, such as them personally coming up and pushing, or using hirelings to do it.
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Re: reworking outposts

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:18 pm

which is pretty much how it works now isnt it?

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