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Fuck. This. Shit.

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by 13loodRaven on Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:56 am

Yeah that too, I noticed he deals more damage to himself than that of which he outputs D:

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Glycine on Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:01 pm

*Not sure if serious*

The key to Typhus is not to use Rot. Rot is generally only good if you can sneak up behind someone with it, to activate the slow, and even then it's not so good against tanks/anyone who can blink away.

The key is to spam Winds while leveling Rot. Winds does 250-300 damage over 2.5 seconds, and with only a 7 second cd, it's like Lucius's old innate. Once that gets nerfed though, he'll be pretty fail. >>
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:49 pm

im sorry this site remoes plus signs >.>

(assume im keeping same stats, as of item thread)
mechanical augmentation is 150, narthecium is 350
to get 8 str and 4 regen, you need to spend 150*4 and 350* 2 and 6 item slots
thats 1300 gold and 6 slots
to get the same bonuses with more expensive items
boss pole is 450
so thats 450*2 and 350*2 and 4 item slots
thats 1600 and 4 item slots
so 2 item slots is worth 300 gold

so cost of the base items is 650 (mech*2 and nart)
the cost of the bonuses given by the recipe is 650 (4 str and 2 regen)
and the cost of saving 5 item slots is 750
for a total of 2150

if i reduce the bonuses on the item to 6 str and 4 regen, i get a total of 1650 including base price, bonus price, and slot space.

and DONT give me KISS when i try to provide math examples as to why something costs what it does, *when you ask me for math examples as to why lightning arc is 8 second cd now*

how did you get your numbers for suggest bionics? did YOU math them out? or did you just toss in a number, which you yell at me for doing.


1: look at the current damage/cd on lightning arc, ive already changed that.
2: typhus needs reworking, not a complete remake (and yes, usually time will do)
3: cato's summons will become (light?) armor - the same as lane creeps, and they will get normal (or piercing) damage, so they deal less damage to buildings - im thinking normal

the rest ill have to adress when i get back from work
turns out i dont work today >.>

EDIT:
ill address from top to bottom
if i miss something, let me know.

"overnerf":
yes, i did over nerf rakel. I just wanted to remove the ridiculous 2sc cd, and didnt realise that the skill no longer scaled.
from one version to the next (maby 2 >.>) i fixed it. Now leave me alone please

If a hero is only good for one skill, and that skill is op, and i nerf it, the hero will be bad. Im not too worried about heroes that are bound for a remake being sub-par, cause its a waste of time trying to think of ways to fix them (apart from number tweeks or quick fixes) if they are just gona get a full and proper change later.

"terrain":
if at all possible, take a screen shot of a point on the map with faulty pathing and ill fix it.
also, if you think a certain spot on the map just looks bad, suggest a fix. I am NOT good at terraining

general comment at son's post, end of cell's after that, and gly's after that, and then cell's after that:
thats what im trying.
thats why i want to finalize this version soon as possible, so i can get this huge lump of massive changes official and stable* so i can work on specific changes for next version.
the next few versions will focus on smaller aspects of overall balance requirements (starting with the few remakes/reworks planned, maby a new hero, and if it wont take too long, the items)


blood raven:
i like the current scale of item benefits (and i dont know if everyone agrees, but eh)
they arent meant to be the sole focus of the game (ie: you can only win if you have the good items)
yes, they are a bit of a mess atm, but thats why the item thread exists. Comment on that if you have any ideas.


final note on this post:
for alot of the heroes listed, i dont think they are really that imba.
so: If you think a hero is op and needs fixing (and able to dominate games like you say) i require 2 replays demonstrating your ability to dominate a game with that hero.
only condition is that its NOT a pub stomp. i dont want to see a game with 4 clannies vs a full pub team.







*stable, not perfect balance, but at least without its opness as much as possible


Last edited by Grass Hopper on Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:46 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by cellrawr on Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:59 pm

Grass, on the changelog. Could you possibly put which beta version those were added in when you do updates. On a lot of those heroes I can't remember enough to tell whats new and whats just piling up.

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:02 pm

Prolly Razz sorry XD

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Glycine on Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:03 am

Out of curiosity, how exactly do you manage to *not* find a game in which everyone isn't playing for the first time? Please direct me to such a place.

As for my numbers, let's see.

I assume current game conditions, which means that a Nart. is 400 gold, not 350.
To get 4 strength and 3 regen, one has to spend 150*2 and 400 gold, with 1 regen coming from the Recipe. 3 Item slots, and a total of 700 gold.

Or you can spend 450 + 400 with Boss Pole. 2 Item Slots, and a total of 850 gold.

In this way, 1 item slot costs 150 gold, equal to your cost.

The cost of the base items is 700 gold.
The cost of 1 regen is 200 gold.
The cost of the item slots is 300 gold.

So in this way, 4 strength, 3 regen bionics costs 1200. So there, they've been mathed out. Plainly, you're making it cost far, far too much for an early game item.
Warp Icon is the only other item that comes close, and I will make no secret of the fact that I don't think its effects are good item design.

It's probably more cost effective to buy 120 gold bio-regenerations rather than pump out 1650-2150 gold for a bionics, though how I would math that out is tricky. Too many variables to account for, like hero type, user skill, denying, etc, etc.

More to come tomorrow.

Postscript: About Rakel... We'll see. I don't really have faith in your changes, because they don't address the root problem with Rakel, but who knows. I just hope you didn't create another Vindi.
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:27 am

Omg

You day in complicating the Shit out of bionics with complicated math, then use that exact same math to prove your numbers.
And 2 strength and 450 gold is not chaning a lot.
In terms of early game it means people can't spam a str/regen item.

And what's the root problem with rakel? Something else you've failed to tell me? Cause as far as I
remeber, no ones told me what the root problem is. They've only bitched about arc.


And whenever I'm in I usually have 4ish clannies in the game. Don't ask me how it just seems to happen

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Glycine on Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:28 am

Not the clannies, I know we're somewhat active, but actually getting a game where everyone else isn't dling. Such a game hasn't been seen in a long time.

And yet you're going to allow people to spam mana regeneration items? When Targeting array comes out, with its imbalanced 20% damage, Agility heroes will spam that some more. Why do I need to tell you this? You miss the forest for the trees. Raising the prices of early game items will only slow the game down even more, because whether you want it or not, AoS's are item driven, and you'll have to make a radical change to even come close to negating that.

And to be fair, if you add a bunch of numbers without mathematical modifiers, it'll look complicated regardless of what it actually is. I just used your math, because it was there and you explained it properly the second time around.

As for Rakel, you know the evasion skill is lame, you know psychic lash is ineffective, you know she either lives or dies based on her nuke, which means she will fail so hard against anything with magic resistance or lots of health. She simply didn't have the DPS then when she was imba, and won't have it now. She is still like a piece of chalk in terms of fragility, and she is easily ganked. The only thing that deterred heroes before was an imbalanced Arc, and the DPS she gets from the new Arc won't even come close mid-late game.

Until she's changed fully, nothing will be solved. She may be good at times, but that's contingent on player skill, not the merits of the hero herself. I may be overreacting slightly, but that's just what I believe. Your change, as you say it is, is just a jury-rig, but we can't jury rig the map into being good.
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:00 am

The only non-dlers in my games are clannies Razz
I'm not expecting that to change any time soon.
Altho I sometimes so get a few people who have played before.

Ill look over spirit stone today.
And with 100 base damage** targeting array will give 20 damage.
With 70 base damage it'll give 14 damage.
How much does it cost and how much does power weapon cost?

**bonus damage% doesn't account for pure damage from +damage items. Only damage from base damage and stats.

Yeah... And sorry bout the random numbers XD this site randomly removes plus signs.


As to rakel: yes she's sub par, but I'm not going to waste time trying to fix the hero when I'm just gonna give her a full remake later

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Heroes:
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Glycine on Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:15 am

The point I'm making is that items shouldn't cost so much early game. Bionics was an aberration because the recipe gave so much bonus from the actual base items, but many other items give only a little above what the base items give, so all you're doing is paying for the item slots.

Targeting array costs 1100, Power Weapon 1500.

At level 7 most heroes have about 70 damage per hit, so you already get 14.
At level 25, some heroes have as much as 130 in their prime stat and can do 170-200 damage per shot just from stats and base damage. So you're getting a 34-50 damage bonus just from 1100 gold. And it stacks with other damage modifiers, but I'm not sure if it stacks with itself.
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:35 am

It won't stack with itself, but it will stack with other command auras.
And I didn't realise the damage to cost ratio was so high.
Should I either lower the bonus to 10% or increase the cost. Or both?

And bionics isn't technically an 'early game' item. Yes its supposed to be gotten early game, but its not supposed to be part of that item group that you get early to keep you in lane. Its a stepping stone item that is gotten early and should be upgraded.
And to be fair, 100 more gold on the recipe won't make it suddenly unaccessable early game.
And compared to now, its only a 50 gold difference. Cause nart will be 350 and the recipe will be 1000

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Heroes:
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Glycine on Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:48 am

The recipe doesn't need to be so expensive. That's my point. You can't just lower stats and raise costs and expect the balance to just be fixed like pixie dust. No other early game recipe (and yes, Bionics is an early game item, because it's gotten by level 7) has a recipe that costs so ridiculously much. Lower the stat bonuses, keep the recipe cost down, and that's an option.

You can try having a 1k cost Bionics recipe in the betas and test it, but it's a silly idea, in my opinion. All you accomplish is tilting the item distribution to those who can farm up better than others.
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:57 am

its an early game item, yes. but its not supposed to help your early game.
its supposed to be kinda of the inbetween early and mid game when your building your items.

also, for its effect (str *and* regen) it needs to have a decently large recipe cost to be balanced.
and didnt i math out the cost and discover that it works?
or i can add in another mech and take off 300
or another nart and take off 500

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Son007 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:09 pm

I dont know if this would be a good thing to add but could you make items that can be upgraded. For Bionics the level one of it would give the normal bonuses (the ones that the two items give, 2 items into one for level one). Then for level two it could add 2 str and 2 hp regen. Level 3, (Adding to the base not to the last level) 4 str, 3 hp regen. Level 4, 6 str, 4 hp regen, etc. Numbers would be different then what I put but you get the idea. That way its an early game item that can be upgraded to give a little later buff.

Items could cost little and give little buffs unless you spend a little more and get it upgraded. There'd be a level cap for items, like level 5 with a 100% (or something) of the base item benefits.

Just an idea, comment.
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:48 pm

i think that would be a good idea for... *some* items. but not for all

1: not all items even need something like that (like imagine upgrading thunder hammer just for buying the recipe)
2: its a ton of work for me to make 5xnew upgrades for each item

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And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
"Behold The Stuff! It Is Good!"
And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by cellrawr on Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:37 am

Surprised Yriel ult still ridiculous. <_< Able to plow through people because of just termi armour.

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Glycine on Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:08 am

Yriel's ult is still too powerful, I agree. He's like a wet piece of paper in terms of fragility, but if you give him even one good nuking/burst hero, he's still good, because all spells do their max damage.
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:34 am

yes, i figured.

aparently 3x the residual magic resistance ruins my theory

ill reduce it to 1x at all levels
or maby max it a 2x

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And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
"Behold The Stuff! It Is Good!"
And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

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