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Fate of the 2nd and 11th

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Fate of the 2nd and 11th

Post by DeusMechanicus on Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:05 pm

"No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?"
- Rogal Dorn, Primarch of Legio VII, the Imperial Fists

I think that implies that Lorgar wasn't Chaos' first convert. In fact Lorgar states in one of the novels that the Emperor "ordered them to be forgotten" and struck them from Imperial record. If the Emperor had found them in Chaos' clutches, he most likely would've killed them and covered it up. But in hiding the fact he left his other sons unprepared to resist the temptations of Chaos. As the Blood Ravens are fond of saying, "Knowledge is power."
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Re: Fate of the 2nd and 11th

Post by Glycine on Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:41 am

Chaos shouldn't be the scapegoat in a deliberately vague tale of how two legions magically disappeared. What if, you know, one or both actually had minds and wills of their own and wished to achieve goals contrary to what the Emperor willed?

Or perhaps they fell to the xenos taint of the Eldar. Who really knows? Or they could have been lost during a warp drive or what not.

In short, there are other explanations, all of them equally valid to one degree or another. Use them as you will, if you will it.
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Re: Fate of the 2nd and 11th

Post by DeusMechanicus on Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:20 am

The quote from Rogal Dorn pretty much rules out them being lost- oh, and, being lost during a Warp jump is basically going to Chaos. Anyway, Chaos is the most likely of suspects because they are the reason the primarchs were spread out across the galaxy to begin with. And in fact most of the primarchs denied the Emperor when he first arrived- and he beat the shit out of them in contests of strength, will, or intellect, so it seems unlikely that they refused to follow him (also goes against Dorn's quote). About the Eldar ... Fulgrim, for example, almost worked along side a group of Eldar. He was prepared to leave an entire system of planets being cultivated for Eldar re-population alone, going against the Emperor's decree that all planets should be prepared for human civilization, and would have had it not been for the Chaos sword he had on him when they met to discuss it.

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Re: Fate of the 2nd and 11th

Post by DeusMechanicus on Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:34 pm

Then again, it also says "Their separate tragedies", so it implies two different fates awaited them. It's almost certain one of them was a worshiper of Chaos, maybe not the Chaos Gods as we know them in their current state, but Chaos nonetheless- otherwise there'd be no reason for Dorn to lament them in such a way after receiving word of Horus' heresy. They were a warning to all of the remaining Primarchs, perhaps of Chaos, perhaps simple hubris. I think Konrad Curze is the only primarch who took the warning to heart. He clearly didn't turn to Chaos (Dorn ordered him to Isstvan even after being attacked by him on Nostromo) - after the Siege of Holy Terra he didn't flee to the Eye like the other traitors, he targeted specific worlds and continued to attack. I believe he was instilling the fear of what corruption in general (Chaos or otherwise) was capable of, the pain and suffering it could bring. During the Great Crusade he brought worlds to compliance through fear, no world he conquered EVER turned away from the Emperor (except for Nostromo, because of Dorn's interference), a feat that can only be matched by Lorgar. I also don't believe Curze is dead. In his vision he saw the Emperor personally killing him. Going on his track record of predicting actual events, I'd say his visions are pretty damned accurate, so he's still out there somewhere. Anyway, back to the 2nd / 11th ... in "The Lightning Tower" Dorn is scared, and he contemplates if he is scared of his brothers, but he realises he's scared of what would cause his brothers to fall. Could be taken as a hint that he's referring to Chaos. Could also be referring to just arrogance, ego, et cetera, but that just doesn't make as much sense as Chaos.

"I knew a being like you once before, so sure in his powers, so convinced of his superiority that he could not see his doom until it was upon him. Like you, he wielded dark powers. Our father made him pay with his life for such evil."
- Mortarion to Magnus

"...The Ravens, I see them too! The lost sons and a Raven of Blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"
- Remembrancer vision, circa The Great Crusade

According to that quote it is completely possible the Blood Ravens are actually a Legion, not a Chapter. They posses the Sanctorium Aracanum, their own Astronomicon. And their Primarch is the "Unknown Primarch" and they are ashamed of their early history (guarding it jealously or outright destroying it). It's seems more likely that they're a loyal splinter of the Thousand Sons (that quote does come from the Thousand Sons HH book), as many theories suggest. It's completely possible Mortarion is speaking of his adoptive father. Who the Emperor shitkicked. Though I don't remember reading anything about Mortarion's father being a psyker.

“No,” said Malcador. “Not alone. Never alone. The Emperor may not stand beside us, but he has given us the means to fight this war and win it. Horus has three of his brother legions with him, you have your Fists and thirteen others.”
“Would that it were fifteen,” mused Dorn.
“Do not even think it, my friend,” warned Malcador. “They are lost to us forever.”

That quote suggests perhaps the two lost Primarchs aren't dead, but imprisoned / entombed / or otherwise detained. "Do not even think it", what was Dorn thinking? Calling / freeing them?

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Re: Fate of the 2nd and 11th

Post by Fairemont on Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:14 pm

It is also highly likely that the two were found, and that, despite everything, their time on their planets, their dominance, etc. over others had grown on them so much that even though the Emperor was their plain superior, and they were not willing to back down nor to follow him, in this case, it is highly likely that he either disposed of them in order to protect himself and the others against any wavering minds, hence, they may or may not be dead, they may or may not be imprisoned, they may or may not have turned to chaos, though it is highly unlikely that if they did turn to chaos that they would still be alive because over the however many hundreds and thousands of years, we have not yet heard word or sight of them. So, that probably rules out having turned to chaos. The most likely things would be 1.) They were relocated to a planet that could not sustain them, or that they could not live upon, ie. one with no life support such as a lack of oxygen or food. 2.) They were killed between relocation and the Emperor's quest to find them, ie. even a primarch could not stand against an excessively large and angry populace of a planet, especially if they were fighting with bare hands against something akin to a very large dinosaur or something aka a squiggoth. 3.) They were relocated beyond the reach of the Emperor. I don't know if it was possible or likely, but there is a limit to how far humans can travel, or maybe even they were just dumped into space itself. Could make it hard to live through. There are many of other theories that you have neglected so far, but I respect the ones you have come up with thus far, as well as the information you have obviously worked to gather up to support them.

*Thumbs up* to finding anything more concrete.

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Re: Fate of the 2nd and 11th

Post by Glycine on Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:12 am

The warp is a finicky thing. It not only messes with space, but also with time. And then the paradox theories start popping up, but that's a mess.

As for what I'd personally like to believe about the disappearance of the two legions:

The fact that Dorn personally refers to them as Legions means two things:
1. that the Emperor found the two Primarches and each Primarch founded their legion, but some event occurred as to cause the disappearance of both legions in such a way that it has been erased from history.

2. The two primarches were never found, and much like Magnus's legion, the legion of each respective primarch required the presence of their progenitor in some way, shape or form. Without that presence, the legions either undertook a drastic action or could not survive, resulting in their disappearance.

Taking those two facts into consideration, I believe that the Emperor found his legions and incorporated them into the Great Crusade, but an event or events occurred which caused the rebellion or destruction of one or both legions. Whether influenced by chaos or xenos forces or perhaps annihilated, who knows.

Not wanting to remind the other 18 legions of what could occur, the Emperor decided to seal the information permanently.

What I seriously question is how the Emperor failed to notice the emergence of the Necrons and the C'tan, forces that very well can and will destroy his empire.
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Re: Fate of the 2nd and 11th

Post by Fairemont on Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:16 am

It wouldn't have been any good if he knew they were there. Besides, if they were to lie dormant, maybe they were invisible to his psychic detection? From many of the books I have read, many of the encounters of the Necrons have been with psychic individuals either as the main character or as a character nearby, and none have ever detected them prior to being woken up. Maybe there is something in that?

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Re: Fate of the 2nd and 11th

Post by DeusMechanicus on Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:27 am

The C'tan he was aware of (see "Mechanicum", the Void Dragon was put on Mars for a reason). The Necrons, on the other hand, while dormant are in effect lifeless. Perhaps he did see them and passed them off as old automatons long forgotten and not worth thinking of?

"We are curious," came a mighty anguished thought which itself transcended time. "We have followed your intrusion into our sanctuary, our antrum and adytum."

"My lord." Jaq sank to his knees. "I beg to report to you before I am destroyed. I may have uncovered a major conspiracy-"

"Then we will strip your soul bare. Relax, mortal man, or you will surely die in such pain as we always endure."

---

"We have put back what we took and tasted, Inquisitor-"

"We are many, Inquisitor-"

"How else could we administer our Imperium-"

"As well as winnow the Warp-"

"How else?"

"So does the Hydra threaten us?"

"Imperiling our grand and awful plan to steer Humanity?"

"Did we ourselves devise the Hydra?"

"Perhaps in part of us, since the Hydra promises a path?"

"Surely a malevolent path; For how could Humanity ever free itself?"

"Then we must be malevolent too. For we have expelled our sentimentality long ago. How else could we have endured? How else could we have imposed our rule?"

"Yet by virtue of that we are pure and uncontaminated by weakness. We are grim salvation."

"Nothing that safeguards Humanity can be evil, not even the most strenuous inhumanity. If the human race fails it has failed forever."

"When we confronted the corrupted, homicidal Horus who once used to shine like the brightest star, who used to be our beloved favorite - when the fate of the galaxy hung by a thread - were we not compelled to expel all compassion? All love? All joy? Those went away. How else could we have armored ourselves? Existence is torment, a torment that must nourish us. Evidently we must strive to be the fierce redeemer of Man, yet what will redeem us?"

"Great Lord of All, did you know of the Hydra before now?" Jaq asks.

"Yet we surely knew. How could we know not?"

"Once we have analysed the information within this sub-mind of ours."

"Hear this, Jaq Draco: Only tiny portions of us can heed you, otherwise we neglect our Imperium, of which our scrutiny must not falter for an instant. For time does not halt everywhere within the Realm of Man. Indeed time only halts for you."

"We are an ever watchful lord, are we not? Did you hope to gain our undivided attention?"

"How else should we soul-bind psykers and overview the Warp and beam the Astronomicon beacon and survive and receive information and grant audiences all at once, unless we are many?"

"And yet still we miss so much, so very much? Such as that which guided you here."

"Our spirit guided you."

"No: Another spirit, a reflection of our goodness which we thrust from us."

"We are the only source of goodness, severe and drastic. There is no other source of hope than us. We are agonisingly alone."

"There was even talk of disbanding us and expunging us from Imperial history."
Lemuel shook his head. "The thing about history," he said. "It has a habit of remembering the things you'd like to forget. No one can erase that much, there will always be some record."
"Don't be so sure Lemuel," said Ahriman. "The Emperor's wrath is a terrible thing."

And back to the 2nd / 11th for a moment ... that also hints that the 2nd / 11th did something to severely piss the Emperor off. More so even than Horus betraying him. Horus' and the other Traitors' statues are merely covered by a cloth, the missing Primarchs don't even have statues.

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Re: Fate of the 2nd and 11th

Post by DeusMechanicus on Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:28 pm

Glycine wrote:

The fact that Dorn personally refers to them as Legions means two things:
1. that the Emperor found the two Primarches and each Primarch founded their legion, but some event occurred as to cause the disappearance of both legions in such a way that it has been erased from history.

Actually, that's incorrect, the Emperor built the Legions before going out to look for the Primarchs. When the Primarchs were found they were given control of the Legion created in their pre-Warp-flight images, along with additions from their homeworlds. Thus, for example, why only Sanguinius, not his entire legion, had wings.

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Re: Fate of the 2nd and 11th

Post by Glycine on Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:00 pm

No, I mean the geneseed of the two legions existed as to create their legions, that the two legions existed up to a point. Having read the recent HH novel, there are several references to the fallen legions, and that they were purged precisely because the Emperor did not like what they did. Why, who knows.
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Re: Fate of the 2nd and 11th

Post by DeusMechanicus on Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:11 am

That's what this entire thread was about ... what happened to the two legions / Primarchs.

It was never disputed that the 2nd and 11th Legions ever existed.

Anyway, there are several quotes in the HH books talking about ALL of the Primarchs being gathered together with the Emperor for some kind of celebration, during the Great Crusade, but it had only happened once. So apparently they all got together for some reason, but then the 2nd and 11th Primarchs did something to piss the Emperor off REALLY bad.

But saying that the Emperor was mad enough to completely erase them from history is saying they did something more than simply fall in battle, or make deals with xenos (both Fulgrim and Horus come close to doing the latter). Which leaves a very small list of options.

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