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Changes to the way I release versions? (read the thread)

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New Method of releasing verisons?

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Changes to the way I release versions? (read the thread)

63% 63% 
[ 5 ]
37% 37% 
[ 3 ]
 
Total Votes : 8

New Method of releasing verisons?

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:45 pm

EDIT: whoever voted no, please post and explain why you dont want me to. im not 100% sold on this over how i do it now, and you may think of valid reasons why i shouldnt

Ok, so.

In an effort to avoid the desaster of a changelog that was this version, I've come up with a potential new method for version changes.

Currently:
At the moment, a Version includes a bunch of changes that are made on the map based on what I decide makes it in. The ammount of content in each Version is entirely up to me, as well as what is necesssary. This constitutes a Version increment
Any major imbalances/bug fixes would constitute a letter version (0.xxb, 0.xxc).
The changelogs of these Versions would include a list of every change made in the Incremental Version, organized into bugfixes/items/honor/general/heroes etc.
Letter Versions would follow the same pattern, and be included as a seperate section from the Incremental Version, but still on the same page.
It generally takes a couple months to release an Incremental Version, with Letter Versions comming in the weeks/month after. Then work starts on the next Incremental Version.

Now, what I am suggesting is this:
Each content change would now constitute an Incremental Version, while any non-content changes (balance) would cosntitute a Non-Incremental Version. The new version number set would look like this: X.XX.xx (large X's are Incremental Versions, while small x's are Non-Incremental Versions)
So every time new content is implemented into the map, I would release an Incremental Version. Any subsequant balance changes made on the map, instead of being saved up for an Incremental Version, would then be released as Non-Incremental Versions.
Change Logs for these would have the content change in the Incremental Version, and any changes from the previous version's Non-Incremental Versions. The "official" changelog would look much like how they do now (the Non-Incremental Versions' changes wont be divided into headings based on version), but any changes in Non-Incremental Versions will be released into a thread set up similarily to the current beta thread (but organized into sections, intead of a big list)
The loading screen would only be updated for Incremental Versions.

Why:
This allows focused development. Im only working on one thing at a time. Any content changes come one at a time, and are balanced (theoretically) before the next content change. This will stop me from trying to do 30 things at once (and result in a version like .46.... 1 year in the making and a changelog 4 pages long).
It will also (for the most part) remove "private" beta testing in between versions, but it might cause the initial content change to be slightly more imbalanced that in necessary. (If you remeber from beta testing, whenever a new hero was implemented, that would be the scene for an Incremental Version)

Of course... this will completly skew projected versions for changes... but oh well. I'll prolly end up working faster and more focused anyway.
And as to version changes... if, for some reason, version numbers are above 100 (ie... i was at beta 100 for this version), I can do 1 of 2 things: have 100's for version numbers, or do a segmented(right word?) version number like this: X.XX.x.xx (with example numbers something like this for a version 52 with 105 non-incremental versions -> 0.52.1.05)

As to what "content" is:
I'd define content as hero/item/terrain/game mechanic.
Content does not mean "new", so remakes* would fall under content too

*Defining a remake:
it might be hard to know where a rework turns into a remake (as reworked heroes wont count as content change), so I'll put this forward: New skills constitute remakes. (so the avatar in this version would be a rework: no new skills were added, but he did get new/changed effects to most of his skils).
And under the same thread: A 'remake' is actually a new hero if I don't use any of the old code in the 'remake' (currently, the pathfinder counts as a 'new hero' remake, because nothing from the original pathfinder was reused)


Last edited by Grass Hopper on Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:08 am; edited 2 times in total

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Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Re: New Method of releasing verisons?

Post by Glycine on Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:59 am

*thumbs up*

Do what you need to do. That's all I have to say about it, because if I can't create time for you, you might as well make the most efficient use of time.
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Re: New Method of releasing verisons?

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:14 am

Lol I wondered when someone would comment on this Razz

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Re: New Method of releasing verisons?

Post by Glycine on Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:16 am

Lazy bastards, the lot of them. >>
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Re: New Method of releasing verisons?

Post by 13loodRaven on Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:28 am

AIGHT!

I haven't been on in a long while, and its good to see most things going smoothly. Razz
I agree with this new way of releasing different vers.

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Re: New Method of releasing verisons?

Post by Grass Hopper on Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:35 pm

right, it has been a while Razz

good to see you around again : )

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And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Re: New Method of releasing verisons?

Post by Glycine on Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:20 am

So show us a trial changelog, in the event you worked the next version like you're imagining. What's going in first, exactly?
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Re: New Method of releasing verisons?

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:03 am

well, atm, i dont really know whats going in first XD but prolly a new hero, im thinking farsight.

so.. walking through an expected version...

hero is implemented into the map, as in i import the code and create the object data for Farsight.
Then there would be private beta testing of the new hero, to fix any bugs or glaring imbalances that werent found in my single player testing. This private beta testing would involve a few games. more than 1, less than 5 prolly.
Then i would release a new Incremental Version, including only the new hero as a change, and anything else that gets noticed between the period of last version and this one (this would most likely include bugs found in private beta testing)

the changelog would prolly look like this:
===
generic download links
===
changes:
-Added a new hero: O'Shova - Commander Farsight

-few bug fixes/balance changes


then this version would be very similar to the beta versions just after i add a new hero. As there wasnt alot of balance testing, theres a likely hood that the hero isnt 100% balanced.
After playing a few public games, getting people to pick the new hero, I am able to find and fix more balance issues / bugs etc. make some more changes.
after making those fixes, im ready to release a new non-incremental version (that consists of balance/bug fixes)

the changelog would look something like this:

(the changelog from the incremental version goes here)
(the changes from non-incremental versions go after the incremental version changes)

===
generic downloads
===
changes:
-generic balance changes
-generic balance change

-bug fix
-etc.

Then for a nother non-incremental version, i would include that changelog underneath the previous. This would create a list of changes orginazed by non-incremental version
(it would look like the "current map-in-progress" thread, but instead of having a Specific Hero then a list of changes by version, it would have a Specific Version then a list of changes by hero)



This method looks alot like development during previous beta stages
i release a major content changes, and spend the next couple "versions" balancing it and fixing bugs/balance in the map

instead of waiting for a large set of planned changes to be finished, im instead only working on one thing at a time. Implement and balance, then Implement and balance, the Implement and balance.


something to be noted
on the changelog page (found on the side bar), the Incremental version will include changes from the previous non-incremental versions.
so it would look like this for the next 2 versions:

V0.47
-Start of a new method of releasing versions(see below)
-Added a new hero: O'Shova - Commander Farsight

-Fixed a bug with something

(info on version release method)


V0.48
-Added a new hero: O'Shassera - Commander Shadowsun

General:
-fixed some pathing issues
-Outpost hp (xxxx => xxxxx)
-tower damage (xx => xxx)

items:
-increased damage on x
-increased cost on x

Ahriman:
-increased general awesomeness
-Decreased other stuff

Farsight:
-lowered damage on x
-increased cooldown on x
-removed effect from x
-added a cooldown to x



however, on the general discussion page
the changelogs would look like this

V0,46(<= this would most likely be a link to downloads, or something)
-Start of a new method of releasing versions(see below)
-Added a new hero: O'Shova - Commander Farsight

-Fixed a bug with something

(info on version release method)

V0.46.0.01:
general:
-fixed some pathing issues

farsight:
-lowered the damage on x
-increased the cooldown on x

V0.46.0.02:
general:
-outpost hp (xxxx => xxxx)
-tower damage (xx => xxx)

Ahriman:
-increased general awesomeness

farsight:
-removed an effect from x

V0,46.0.03:
items:
-increased the damage on x
-increased the cost on x

Ahriman:
-decreased some other stuff

farsight:
-added a cooldown to x

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And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
"Behold The Stuff! It Is Good!"
And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Re: New Method of releasing verisons?

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:08 am

whoever voted no, please post and explain why you dont want me to. im not 100% sold on this over how i do it now, and you may think of valid reasons why i shouldnt

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And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
"Behold The Stuff! It Is Good!"
And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Re: New Method of releasing verisons?

Post by Glycine on Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:28 am

Well, let's see the failings of such a method. *playing Devil's Advocate*

For one, if you add or change multiple heroes within a version, I don't believe it's fair to say it's possible to theoretically balance that hero within a small timeframe without strenous testing. Say there are 4 heroes, added one by one. As you add each hero into the map, you not only have to find bugs and balance issues with between the heroes already present in the map, but also balance issues between the heroes that you add in.

If two skills from separate, new heroes interact to crash the game or one-hit kill a hero, that's obviously a problem. But say that's fixed and another hero comes along and his/her/its skill interacts with a skill from the two old heroes to create another bug.

We're still testing and finding bugs in heroes in 115 betas from when we started, so while this method allows for focused development at the start of the process, by the time you reach the end, like now, you become bogged down by how many things are interacting and causing problems.

And there's another issue, aside from playing. Would it not be wiser to run numbers on most, if not all the skills of a hero and see how the potential balance appears, instead of having to run the numbers after the hero enters the game?

I would like to recommend to people, if they are to make heroes, to at least run the math of your skills out once or twice as an abstract, to really see how powerful or weak it might be. If people want constants to work with, I'll gladly provide them, like stat growth, but the creator has to become the balancer at some stage in the process.
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Re: New Method of releasing verisons?

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:44 am

that can theoretically be said on any new hero, ever.
Every new hero has a possibility to interact with existing heroes in the map and cause bugs/imbalances. Its not somethign inherant with this new system, so you wont really ahve to worry about that.

now, not saying its guaranteed to work like this, but its a possibility...
if a new hero in this method is tested and focused on for the entirty of the next couple versions, its actually *more* likely to find bugs/imbalances associated with this new hero, as i will ask people to specifically pick that new hero.
instead of how it was before, where there were a large number of things on the go in a single version, that after i implemented a hero, i insisted for a few games, then let people do whatever.

before, (thinking the commissar version specifically) i had introduced several new heroes in quick succession into the beta games, and (i dont remeber... but) im sure that some bugs in the hero interactions ruined a couple games.
Now, ill make sure all (well, most) bugs will be found and fixed with a new hero and its interactions with existing content before releasing the next Incremental Version.

and really, the game will *never* be without bugs or balance issues. If that day ever comes, i will say "fuckit, im stoping while im ahead" and move to sc2 right there and leave a perfectly balanced and bug free map where it is Razz


as to number crunching... i wont lie, i usually never math craft.
but, numbers are looked at over the course of a heroes development, and i do single player test, so *obvious* glaring imbalances will usually be filtered out before a hero hits public play.
and i think the event of dedicated in house beta tests for specific heroes (the first 1-4 games before releasing an Incremental Version) will go a decent way in filtering out balance issues before the hero hits publics.

that being said, i will take the time to number crunch the next batch of heroes.


EDIT: there, i did some math on Farsight.
is that what you had in mind?

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And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
"Behold The Stuff! It Is Good!"
And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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