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0.46 Heroes Thread!

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0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Glycine on Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:45 pm

Pathfinder:

Spoiler:
I've been getting quite a few responses about him, saying not only he's hard to play, but also that people would have preferred the old Pathfinder.

Both comments are understandable, and while I can't do anything about the latter request, I think Pathfinder is in need of desperate buffs to make him somewhat easier to play.

There are a few points of contention I'd like to note:

Seeker missiles: Are useless. You basically punish a player for putting his towers near each other enough to get multiple hits. Half the damage is already bad, but you didn't take into account the 25% magic resistance that makes it pitiful. With resistance factored in, 168/84/42/24/12. What the hell is that, Grass? Honestly, did you think about a missile dealing a potential 12 damage?

Remind me, please, why a 168 damage nuke costs 295 mana? It is relatively impossible to get all the markerlights on a target and the armor crush from that is the only redeeming factor of the move. The missiles need a mechanism buff, to make them actually effective, instead of so awful throughout the whole game. Unless a hero is down to 100 health, missiles will never kill one. Ever. Which brings me to my next topic.

Towers: They've proven to be... Well, ineffective. There aren't enough of them to give the map control needed for Pathfinder to be good at map control, and Pathfinder has to burn 2-3 regardless on the rune spots, leaving him with only 2-3 useful towers, which doesn't help very much at all. If he tries to use them in lane, so that he doesn't get pushed out, he loses map control. And without the additional armor crush of the towers, he can't defend or push as effectively.

Not to mention the true sight detection is awkward to activate and isn't good protection against actual invisible heroes, who turn invisible far beyond the range of your towers so that you never know when to activate the scan. The only thing good about it, to be honest, is the damage buff, because the missiles just don't work.

I have a minor problem with the ult, because the damage over time portion never seems to catch any intelligent player and is basically only good for area denial. Which isn't necessarily a problem, but just something I've noticed.



Last edited by Glycine on Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:55 pm

Reduce the stacking damage loss to 25% loss for cosecutive missles. Buff starting damage. Lower the mana cost.
Its that much mama because its a global nuke.
It reduces because for stacking markerlights, your looking at a potential 400 to 600 damage. Targeted. Global. On a regular skill.
But yes, in practice, it is a bit weak and ill buff it

For towers increase the limit by ~2.
Make the truesight aoe that of the tower vision.

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Re: 0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Glycine on Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:08 pm

Grass, it's a global cast, but you require all your towers to be lined up perfectly and I've only ever managed that arrangement at mid. Not to mention there's no way I could fit another 2 towers into that small space at mid.

If you're scared about the damage of missiles, level it with the innate, but remove the damage loss. Or let a max number of lights per target as the innate levels up, so you can't nuke someone to hell at level 7, but keeping a consistent ability to damage units throughout the entire game.

And for towers, you still have to activate the truesight and there's almost no way of predicting when an invisible hero will be in your range.

You need to find a better way to balance missiles and make them useful throughout the whole game without needing to stack towers in one place. That defeats the purpose of the towers, which is to serve as map control, but instead are concentrated in one area.
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Re: 0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:15 pm

Ok how about this. Small passive aoe truesight. Well not small but you get it. And keep the active large aoe. You can are when heroes are there. Then activate it for large aoe sight.

As to missles... Their nukes. By nature they aren't supposed to be good all game.
O will either increase base damage of reduce stacking penalties. Or both. But they shouldn't be as effective at level 20 as they are at level 8

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Heroes:
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Re: 0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Glycine on Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:25 pm

If the missiles were normal missiles, yes, I would give you that. Seeker missiles, however, are not the dinky, little projectiles you make them out to be with Aun'va. A Pathfinder's main source of damage should come from his missiles, because of how powerful they are.

By nature, not all nukes happen to be useless the whole game. Pathfinder's missiles are hardly useful, even if you increase damage or reduce the stacking. If each tower could fire its own missile, without having to wait on a 30 second cooldown from the Pathfinder, it would give much more flexibility to what a Pathfinder can do. Instead of having to stack towers in one location and try and synchronize missile strikes, each tower can markerlight and missile units across the whole map.

And when you talk about classical nukes, yes, the life of units goes up, making general nukes less effective. However, Pathfinder has no classical nukes, besides his pepper spray. What happens when people push into Pathfinder's base? Because of the tight size constraint, it's unwise to seed the base with towers, because not all of them can be used, for one, and you lose map control elsewhere.

Also, his missiles aren't just not effective late game, they're irrelevant. They lack any impact whatsoever. And therein lies the problem. Increasing the damage in either of your two ways only delays the inevitable. And for a hero who doesn't have much to lie back on besides an ult and a global faerie fire, it means he can't function when it comes to that stage of the game. Map control is, after all, useless when you don't control any of the map to begin with. >>
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Re: 0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:36 pm

So you want to make tower markerlight global then? Razz
If towers gain the ability to matkerlight and fire their own missles, it ammounts to lowering the cooldown for the pathfinders seeker missle.
That's pretty much what it does. If the towers get their own missle linked to their light, its the same as lighting with the tower then missling with the pathfinder.

I mean I'm ok with that Razz

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Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Re: 0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Glycine on Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:45 pm

Not exactly Grass. If I have two towers spaced 3000 distance apart, say one tower markerlights. Pathfinder then uses seeker missile, so 1 missile goes. However, the hero still has a sliver of life left, yet the other tower cannot fire a missile because the skill is on central cooldown.

Not to mention all towers make encounter heroes at different intervals, so how can you expect all of them to fire a missile at the same time if you only have one chance to do so?
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Re: 0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:49 pm

Grass Hopper wrote: it amounts to lowering the cooldown for the pathfinders seeker missle

I mean I'm ok with that Razz

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Re: 0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Glycine on Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:17 pm

Tower Markerlight is not global. The range of the markerlight from towers should still be limited to the same area.

If you want to prevent a 400-600 damage stack, you very well can, Grass. It's not designed, for one, to be a stacking tool. It's supposed to give vision across the map, a damage boost, some invisible detection, and the ability to strike down a fleeing hero at less than 10% as well as the ability to harass targets for significant amounts of damage. Not some circle of death. >>
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Re: 0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:09 pm

And doesn't it do that already?
I can lower the cooldown on missle strike of you want Razz it'll make it more accessible for towers that missed the first salvo

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Heroes:
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Re: 0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Glycine on Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:06 am

Now time for Autarch. 330-125

Innate: His stats seemed to be buggy for a second, giving only 20 to agi., but it seems to be fixed.

The Raider's stats don't update, as he's stuck at 500 health and 2 armor. Also, it'd be a really good time to make those offensive changes.... In addition, please, please, please give it the ability to pick people up while in the air. It takes too much time to fiddle with landing, then selecting units, then taking off, and late game, you will die if you have to make use of it

Also, why can land units attack it while it's flying? Exactly what's the point of a land mode if you can attack it in the air with melee attacks? *thwap*

Bombing Run does about 300 damage to an outpost. Not sure if those are good or bad values.

Missiles on heroes are fun and I guess they work? Kind of?

Eye of Wrath: Does what it says it does. Except the actual Eye of Wrath doesn't slow. Is there a substantive reason why it should slow, besides the fact it used to be his jump skill?

Path: Well, changes will come.

Pride: Is named as evasion in the tooltip. >> Also, when attacking units, his armor does not reset after killing one unit for 20 seconds. So basically, the more he stays in combat and attacks, the more armor he loses, which is suicide. The mechanism needs to change in some way.

Spear: Spear does about 200 damage when it first hits a creep. Is this a bug? Also, spear can crit while active. The 2% of max life is too much as well, especially in prolonged combat. You gave it all these nerfs when it was good and didn't buff it when it became mediocre, which is why it's such a problem.

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Re: 0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:34 pm

Ill have to test and see about those bugs.
...were you the one playing Autarch in that game?

For ship
I will start working on the upgrades soon.
Ground units can attack it because their targets don't exclude air units.
You realise that of melee units couldn't target air units melee heroes wouldn't be able to either? Its already hard enough to destroy without screwing melee heroes over even more against it.
And it can't pick heroes up while flying for balance reasons. With any decent micro (the ability to issue orders to a second unit really...) it will be nearly impossible to kill the Autarch and/or his allies of the ship is nearby.
Have you ever seen it destroyed? I haven't. And I've seen it used a fair amount.

As to eye... It slows because it can Razz
And without the slow... Its not effective without it.
And there are no slows in TT Razz

I can lower or remove the armor on pride... Provided its working properly.

And spear ill look at

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Re: 0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Glycine on Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:51 pm

Grass, it makes no sense!

The advantage of having an air unit is such that melee units can't hit it. If it had an attack, yes, it would be somewhat awkward, seeing as you could harass with it or farm, but that's the nature of the unit. If your team has all melee characters, sucks for you if you have to face Autarch. It's like if you face a team of invisible people and your team has no skills for detection. So you're fucked for the most part, until you get an Auspex, and even then the game will be over after they raped you early game.

Well, Grass, it's nearly impossible to keep the Autarch alive in any battle situation. If he's going to lose globs of armor just by attacking, not to mention lose life by having to toggle through spear's use, he won't last long against most competition.

I was just attacking normal creeps and I was losing a large amount of health at level 25 with full items, with Sacr's regen, Staff, and Comb's drugs, just by using spear. It's absurd how self-destructive he is at this point.

And if the ship is too buff to be balanced, then adjust the stats accordingly to balance.

As for Eye, it's not that without the slow it's not effective, it's that we haven't figured out another way to make it effective without the slow. Perhaps because he has no other nukes and must get into melee range to do any damage, that's why the slow makes sense. So what can be done to alleviate this problem?

We know the jump worked well for him in the last version, but that slowed as well. There's always the potential of making him ranged, but that's somewhat unlikely. Would you have any ideas, if you had no choice but to not use slow?

Pride was a little finicky when I was working with it, so take note of that.


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Re: 0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:59 pm


The advantage of flying is... Well flying... You are imune to the effects of terrain and have good vision.
And its going to get some form of attack remember?

As for the ult and price.... I can lower the negatives... But I've never had any real difficulties keeping him alive.
He isn't an easy hero anymore.

As for eye... Why *shouldnt* it slow? It does work.

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Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Re: 0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Glycine on Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:28 pm

Grass, please remind me who the audience of the map is. It's not just you and me and a few other people, is it? We may be competent, but it is wrong of us to create a game that only we can play sufficiently. Just because you can keep him alive doesn't mean other people should be forced to play according to your standards. Is it our aim to create a map that's impossible to play by normal standards? Just because he isn't easy doesn't mean he has to be impossible.

And thank you for your stirring comeback, denoting how flying is flying. If it were to be better on the defensive and support role it carries presently, I see no need to give it an attack.

As for Eye, I asked a question. Could you at least try to answer it? I acknowledged the benefits of slow and how it does fit, so the least you could do is brainstorm.
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Re: 0.46 Heroes Thread!

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:35 pm

hes not impossible to play >.>
as long as he hurts himself with his skills, he will *never* be easy.
but i already said im going to lower the armor loss and self damage.

Glycine wrote:Also, it'd be a really good time to make those offensive changes....
apparently you do see the need to give it an attack Razz

The bonuses flying gives is the pathing bonus and the sight bonus. It has the ability to fly over trees and be generally hard to hit if the owner tries at all.
If I allow it to pick up heroes while in the air, and if the player is at all competant, itll take all of 1 second to pick him up regardless of stuns and 1 second to leave the lane by means of cliff or forrest.

its role defensivly is pretty much non existant. Unless it gains an ability to project its shield over nearby units (that is another option), it doesnt have a defensive role.
its role is purely support. its meant to (semi)quickly ferry yriel and an ally to anywhere on the map.

I can lower the landing time a bit tho.


as to the eye.
Perhaps because he has no other nukes and must get into melee range to do any damage, that's why the slow makes sense. So what can be done to alleviate this problem?
keep the slow.

why am i getting rid of the slow? i see no need to.
if i had to remove it, i would make it stun. Anything that doesnt disable the enemies in some shape or form would make him nearly unable to close with his enemies.

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And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
"Behold The Stuff! It Is Good!"
And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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