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Plague Armor (.47)

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Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:54 pm

so, in an effort to remove lag, as well as adding some real defensive properties to the Rot skill, i propose this:

takes:
-mark of nurgle
-bionics
-refraction field
-adamantine mantle

Plague Armor - [Armor]
"fluff"

gives:
-8 armor
-12 str
-5 regen
-Nurgles Rot

(nurgles rot: Passive, Aura; 300 Aos. Causes nearby enemies to lose 15/3 life/mana per second. Damage reduced by armor will increase the range of the effects by that much. Loses 20 aoe per second.)
note: intervals of 20 for aoe (must reduce at least 20 damage to increase the aoe)

If anyone can come up with a better description, let me know please.
(remeber item tooltips dont have much space)

basically each point of damage reduced by the wearer's armor will increase the range of the aoe. (if you have 50% reduction, take 100 damage, you reduce 50 damage, and increase the aoe by 50)

(this will reduce lag because, instead of starting triggered damage over time timers for each unit for each damage... itll be a single aura given by the item, and the only associated timer is the timer decreasing the power of the skill.)


Last edited by Grass Hopper on Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:38 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Glycine on Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:17 am

How do you measure damage reduced from armor reduction and separate it from any other kind of reduction?
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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:29 am

well, id measure all taken damage vs armor value (so any spell damage taken would be "assumed" physical for the purpose of this skill)

what i do is:
r = getResistance(physical)
original damage = UnitDamage/r
damage reduced = original damage - UnitDamage

this gives me the damage reduced by armor on any given damage

ill then take some value based on that number and buff up the aura.
It used to be 15% of taken damage is converted to the aura, so i guess i could do 5% of reduced damage (before damge used to be dealt over 3 seconds) is converted to the aura.

so if someone reduces damage by 50, itll add 3(2.5 rounded) damage to the aura, and increase the slow by 3%


Last edited by Grass Hopper on Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Glycine on Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:26 pm

You do realize Typhus can just walk into an outpost and slow everything down by 40%. Or any hero who can tank relative amounts of damage.

What would be the max number possible for the slow and degen?
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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:52 pm

No idea, but I was going to day it needs one Razz

The largest possible value it can have is 104 damage and 109% slow.

Would 30% slow and 35 degen be too much?
Or 20% and 25?

I'd also need a better description for the item tooltip >.>

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:30 pm

epic disappointment Sad

unholy aura can only increase regen to 10 (or -10)... so there goes that idea...

in this case i can *only* do the following effects:
-lower armor
-lower damage
-lower attack and movespeed (or each individually)
-lower mana regen
-deal damage

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:20 pm

currnently, it lowers ias and ms (10% ms, 15% ias)
5% of blocked damge is converted to ms/ias loss on the aura.

Current Item Description (that i dont like):
(Nurgle's Rot: Passive, aura. Reduces ms/ias of nearby enemies by 10%/15%. These values will increase by 5% of all damage reduced by armor.)


sample math (note: was wrong before, updated):
->the minimum damage reduced to increase power to the aura is 20 damage. (anything less will round down to 0)
->with just plague's armor(8 ), you have 32% reduction. This means you need to take 62.5 damage to reduce 20.
->as long as the bearer is taking more than 62.5 damage per second (average), it wont lose power on the aura
->to gain max reduction (20 stacks - 30% slow, 35% ias loss), it requires 400 damage reduced, and 62.5 damage per second on the bearer. (this translates to 1250 + 62.5dps damage)
->from max to no bonus, it requires 20 seconds of not taking 62.5 damage.


Last edited by Grass Hopper on Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:52 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Glycine on Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:38 pm

30% AoE slow is very, very scary, Grass. Think of Warp Icon, except worse. Now you really can't hit a tank, because if you do, you're going to get stuck in a swamp, at the mercy of the other team completely.

If I were to choose effects complementary for Nurgle, -armor would be a must. He is the Lord of Decay, after all. I would not choose MS/AS because those are stats more in the domain of Slaanesh. And seeing as Nurgle is the opposite of Tzeentch, -mana regen might work.
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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Glycine on Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:23 pm

And Grass, even if you say you're going to change it, it's a very, very, very bad idea to use a mechanism where the amount of reduced damage determines the effects of the item, especially on an armor. When people can get lots of armor in a lot of ways, number balancing is only going to hurt the item's potential to be balanced or of use in an actual game.

If you lower the slows, then you spend a lot of money to slow someone by just a little. If you increase the minimum activation damage, you basically require an outpost or a hero to activate the armor's effects, meaning it'll be useless against creeps.

Explain your assumption of spell damage as it relates to this item, though.

Off-topic: If you're going to make an actual defensive armor, then do so. This isn't a Warp Icon, nor should you treat it as such. If we really wanted to go by the books, Nurgle's Rot would create Plaguebearers, as well as make the bearer of the armor quite tough and slow. You're making an armor for melee DPS carries/chasers/gankers rather than tanks, which is rather absurd. They don't need any more help, not to mention there's a stunning paucity of actual tanks in the map.

What is the rationale for this item, though? How will 10% MS/ 15% AS serve in a defensive way?
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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by cellrawr on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:02 am

<_< HA, yea, grass. The slow is ubbbbbber slow.

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:07 am

How easily? How often?

EDIT:
and i know this is offtopic... but how was farsight?


@gly:
well, for spell damage... the trigger measures all taken damage against physical reduction. so if a hero takes 100 damage after reduction from a nuke, and has 50% reduction due to armor, the trigger assumes 200 base damage.


as to the actual effects... lowering of offensive properties (ias/ms) increases the survival of the bearer.
if the ms is too much, i can change it to just ias, or maby damage instead.

i wanted an item that would reduce the offensive capability if the bearer is damaged.
It would work better on tanks, because they usually have the survivability to make use of this items effects.


Last edited by Grass Hopper on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by cellrawr on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:11 am

<_< Often? It was when I got hit at anytime ever. It was at the super slow within a couple seconds also.

Edit:
I unno, it didn't turn out to be a good game. Cortez started raping everybody, and LoC did his thing along with feeding off a commisar that never got his ult once until I bought it for him <_<. Everyone else left, I took all there items to max him out item wise, but still it was a buffed up Snikrot and an LoC against one dude.


Last edited by cellrawr on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:13 am

thats what i meant.
the slow stacked up really quickly? whenever you got hit?

ill have to change that then


Last edited by Grass Hopper on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:15 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by cellrawr on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:14 am

I JUST EDITED IT

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:05 pm

So now that we know ma is op and it just dawned on me how counter synergistic it is to have an item that grows in power when damaged reduce ias or damage...

Shouldbi change it to lower armor, drain mama, or deal damage

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Glycine on Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:10 pm

If you were making an armor about Slaanesh, as I said above, then yes, MS/AS would make perfect sense. But it's about Nurgle, who prides himself/itself on being slow and being durable.

You don't need to reduce the offensive capability to buff a defensive manner, especially with a stat as important in offense and in defense as MS. You're setting up tanks to be traps, because no reasonably-thinking hero is going to try and take a hero who slows by 30% by himself. It screams, "Attack me and get ganked by my allies, then watch us laugh at your corpse." It does not say, "Your attacks do nothing to me, keep trying. I'll sip a margarita while you run around frantically in a panic."

PS: it JUST dawned on you of that fact? >> A shame indeed. If you want to kill an enemy's offensive potential, go for their mana. Most heroes will require it in some amount. Without spells to initiate, stun, slow, or nuke, what offense can occur?
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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:25 pm

None of you commented on it either so of you knew of the anti synergy why didn't you day something?

And ill go with mana for now then.
Base of 5, max of 20 it 25?

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Glycine on Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:34 pm

Glycine wrote:And Grass, even if you say you're going to change it, it's a very, very, very bad idea to use a mechanism where the amount of reduced damage determines the effects of the item, especially on an armor. When people can get lots of armor in a lot of ways, number balancing is only going to hurt the item's potential to be balanced or of use in an actual game.

Off-topic: If you're going to make an actual defensive armor, then do so. This isn't a Warp Icon, nor should you treat it as such. If we really wanted to go by the books, Nurgle's Rot would create Plaguebearers, as well as make the bearer of the armor quite tough and slow. You're making an armor for melee DPS carries/chasers/gankers rather than tanks, which is rather absurd. They don't need any more help, not to mention there's a stunning paucity of actual tanks in the map.



Herpaderp, learn to read, Grass. I whored about the item ever since you updated it, because you're either going to create an OP item or an item that requires impossible conditions to balance. Whether you want to read the entirety of my comments is another thing, but what I said still remains.

And if you plan to use the same mechanism for mana, Grass, I'll shoot you down on it right now. I do not want to call you mentally retarded in terms of balance, but what's the average regeneration of a Str, Agi, and Int hero?

Str. and Agi. hardly gain any mana regen. With 75 average Int, that's 3.75 regeneration. So your armor already dooms them to rage, even if they get spirit's, because -20 regen is impossible for them to achieve.

For Int. heroes, who has 150 average mana, that's 7.5 regeneration. Augment it by 300-400%, and you get 22.5-30 regeneration. If one armor is enough to potentially kill a caster's Regen, not to mention mana burn, it's way, way, way too powerful, Grass.

Figure out a different way than using damage to amplify the effects. Tanks will soak up the damage and doom entire teams to being without mana, if your current mechanism stands.

You acknowledge it's counter-synergistic, but I have a different set of words for it: counter-balance. The concept outlined is so OP, you cannot change numbers without ruining the item or the balance, so you MUST change the concept. You built an item for tanks, but under your current logic, tanks can ruin games just by doing their role, by murdering MS/Attack/Mana regen of an entire team.


Where the hell are the drawbacks? Have you forgotten they can exist to balance items? Where's the attention to detail? It's Nurgle, Slow and Purposeful? Low Initiative? Disease?

PS: I know I said mana, but my real beef is with your mechanism.
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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:29 pm

Grass Hopper wrote:it just dawned on me how counter synergistic it is to have an item that grows in power when damaged reduce ias or damage...
Glycine wrote:Herpaderp, learn to read-



Glycine wrote:Where the hell are the drawbacks?
see: Tyrant's Claw


btw: its an item to supplement tanks. its supposed to reward them for... you know... tanking


Last edited by Grass Hopper on Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:39 pm

Updated the OP

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Glycine on Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:22 pm

Grass, I would love to see another example upon which I contradicted myself during development but the current item in the game reflects none of that. Unless you changed the effects on Tyrant's Claw. >>

You can reward a unit for doing well and then you can go overboard, Grass, which your mechanism was doing. You knew it, I knew it, etc, etc. And it's nice to see you've changed it.

That said, if you can work the current armor to be balanced after testing, then that's good. The AoE increase generally is redundant on melee units, and considering all tanks are melee heroes, I fear that it will only have an effect on units who have less than 300 range. Even if you walk into an outpost and increase the range to 1000 AoE, what does that do in the long term? So you get 15 DPS and -3 mana regen. Strength heroes won't be happy, considering all of them are melee, save O'shovah, but they can take your -15 DPS and ignore it. Agility heroes won't be too pleased either, but they'll do better than Strength heroes. And intelligence heroes will laugh at your -3 mana regen and hit you some more.

Essentially, it's Immolation with a larger range and no mana cost. Is that really worth its cost? Does it really help tanks take more damage?
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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:58 pm

The effect itself doesn't help tanks. The rest of the item does that.
The effects *reward* tanking.

And should I change values? I really didn't know what to put there.
I can do %'s too, but that's a ton harder to balance.

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Glycine on Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:10 pm

How does it reward tanking? All you do is increase the range of the AoE, without any other effects. If anything, you could use it on any other type of hero and it would fit right in. What does it give tanks that it cannot give another hero?

All tanks have is more health and a little more armor. Also, all tanks currently are melee, so what difference does it make to increase range when the character is just going to be moving towards units anyway?
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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:06 pm

well, we've apparently established that increasing the power of the aura is a no go.

What does it give tanks that it cannot give another hero?
thats not rewarding tanking, thats facilitating tanking.

it *rewards* tanking.
ie: gives bonuses when you tank.

any hero can tank to a certain extent, but this item gives rewards to those that do tank.
ie: increasing the range of the aura.

All tanks have is more health and a little more armor
and generally sometihng that makes people want to attack them.
You cant be a true tank without making them attack you.

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Re: Plague Armor (.47)

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