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[Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

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[Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Son007 on Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:15 am

This is a rough draft of the remake of Lil'eath, the Great Harlequin.

Innate:

Holo-Field: Passive
Gives the Great Harlequin a 8/101/12/14/16/18% chance to dodge attacks and all attacks made within a 250 AoE that don't get dodged have it's damage reduced by 5/7/9/11/13/15%. Gives a 15% chance to dodge spells. All attacks made at a range of 700 or more have a 16/18/20/22/24/26% chance to miss.



Harlequin's Kiss: Passive
The Harlequin has a 7/10/12/15% chance to instakill creeps when she attacks them and when attacking heroes has the same chance to deal an extra 1/2/3/4% of their max hp.
Cd: 5/4.5/4/3.5



Troupe Master's Rally: Active Speed Increase/Passive Speed Increase
The Troupe Master increases the attack speed and movement speed of nearby allies by 6/8/10/12% and 3/4/5/6%. When this skill is activated the Troupe Master rallies nearby units and increases their attack speed and movement speed to 13/17/21 25% and 7/9/11/13% for 12 seconds.
Cd: 26 Mana: 50/55/60/65 Range/AoE: 600/625/650/675



Flip-Belt: Active Blink
The Troupe Master wears a anti-gravity belt that allows her to do high acrobatic moves, like flip through the air. The Troupe Master blinks to target location, up to 450/550/650/750, increasing her movement rate by 10/13/16/19% for 3/4/5/6 seconds after wards.
Mana: 60/70/80/90 CD: 18/16/14/12



Ultimate:

Dance of Death: Active
The Great Harlequin can make a total amount of attacks of 6/8/10 and no more then 3/3/4 attacks can hit one unit dealing 75/100/125. Lasts 3/4/5 seconds, 2 strikes per second. 400 AoE.
(When active it'll send illusion type things to the unit being attacked dealing the damage then either poofing away or going to another unit. It's like Luna's ult from DotA. That's the Huntress Moon Lady.)
Cd: 120/100/80

/Glycine helped


Last edited by Son007 on Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:06 am; edited 16 times in total
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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Glycine on Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:49 am

Ok, chainsaw time. Razz

Innate: I'm unsatisfied with a mere attack and movement speed boost. Surely you could be more imaginative than copy an entire character's skills over, with minor changes to each to them? It's ok, but just terribly dull and has been.

Dance: 420 AoE is a rather large area to cover. Especially since the Harlequin can be taking on a target in melee range with Dance and hit units way on the periphery of her target. Also, what's the rationale for the 40% attack boost for 2.5 seconds?

Flip-Belt: I told you this already, Son. Flip Belt has no justification to do damage at all, because Grass made up an effect that doesn't exist. Also, what's the justification for a random MS boost?

Holo: For one, the holo-suit does not turn off or on; it's always there. So you can't suddenly activate it to gain a lot of evasion. It's not a shield, so you can't manipulate it as if it were one.

Kiss: Your description of Kiss is wonderfully vague. xD Don't all races use powerful weapons to kill enemies?

That said, I have no problem with the creepkill. My problem, however, lies in the other part of the skill. You may ask, "Well, it's just another crit, so what could be so wrong?" The fact is that you've changed her quite dramatically from being a ganker to being a full-on carry.

Think about the current ult. It basically does the damage you suggest above, 100 + 2/3/4xstr, with a cooldown of 70 seconds (I think?). So you want to allow that kind of damage to proc every 6 seconds, not to mention it'll stack with a Cycl because the two work off different mechanisms.

If you mathcraft it at all levels and all types of heroes:

Str:
Level 6: Str: 40 --> 105 damage
Level 11: 65 --> 230 damage
Level 16: 90 --> 425 damage
Level 25: 150 --> 665 Damage

Agi:
Level 6: Str: 25 --> 75 damage
Level 11: 40 --> 165 damage
Level 16: 70 --> 345 damage
Level 25: 90 --> 425 Damage

Int:
Level 6: Str: 20 --> 65 damage
Level 11: 40 --> 165 damage
Level 16: 60 --> 305 damage
Level 25: 80 --> 385 Damage

It's far worse in terms of balance, because now you have a reasonable chance to proc the crit every 12 seconds (Assuming 6 for cd and 6 seconds to get at one) instead of every 70 seconds. Please tone it down (And be a little more imaginative)

Who said Kiss had to deal damage based on Strength? Grass obviously spouted effects out of thin air, because all I see is a close combat weapon that can rend in TT and a weapon that can instantly kill any individual in fluff, if it pierces their armor. Both effects are equally boring. >>

Overall View: I like what you did with Dance, but you basically copied everything over from the original Harlequin and shifted things a little. Grass would probably call this a rework, rather than a remake. I'm guessing you've decided you want her to be a carry from this point on, rather than a ganker?
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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:24 am

harlequin doesnt need a remake, as such, IMO.
a rework is more than fine.

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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Son007 on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:21 pm

Changed somethings and troupe master is like the squad leader right? Bonus for them being nearby when she uses her skills, like commands.
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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:07 pm

The changing of the ult to passive changes her into an insta-carry.
The innate and ult make her dos, and the other skills help her survivability and ability to close despite being melee.

I do like the dance change tho. As well as the evasion change.
On dance, numbers are very low, damage wise and (maby) range as well
And for the evasion, can we make it a linear progression, instead of intervals? Its easier to code that way. But if you need intervals that's ok too

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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Glycine on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:19 pm

Son, the concept you work off of is represented twice in both Dance and Flip Belt.

Using the Flip-Belt allows her to Dance of Death. Flip-belt on its own does not do damage and if you add a damage part to it, you're being overly redundant by making another "Dance", essentially. Both are jump moves that deal damage to units in an area.

And as a side note, Lexicanum shouldn't be your only source for information. In the three codices I have about Harlequins, here's the description of Flip Belt:

Harlequin codex:
Flip belts are compact anti-grav devices which generate a short range negative-gravity field which, when combined with the Harlequin's already prodigious acrobatic abilities, allow the Harlequins to make all manner of gravity-defying
leaps and bounds. Harlequins can ignore difficult terrain – treat difficult terrain as open ground for the purposes of movement. When advancing after winning an assault, or Harlequins can move 3D6 inches instead of 2D6 inches (note that they fall back 2D6 inches as normal). In addition, a Harlequin model may use their full number of Attacks and any specialist close combat weapons they have when within 2" of an enemy in an assault – this is instead of the 1 Attack with no special rules that other models have in this situation. Remember though that models which
assault the enemy must try to get into base contact if possible.

Eldar 4th edition and Dark Eldar 5th:
The anti-gravity flip belts of the Harlequins enable them to dart through the roughest terrain with their feet barely touching the ground. They ignore difficult terrain.

1st edition Compendium:
To enhance their speed and agility, Harlequins are equipped with suspensor belts known as Flip belts, Inertia Pivots or geirgilath (Belt of Speed). These devices allow the Harlequins to pivot effortlessly about hip level and permit undiminished use of their spectacular acrobatic abilities even when encumbered with battle-gear.

Whoever wrote the Lexicanum article embellished the details to make it seem Flip Belt actually does something on its own, when in fact the Harlequin is always using the Flip Belt.

In short: Dance and Flip Belt use the same mechanism to move and you're being redundant by having two skills do basically the same thing.



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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Son007 on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:54 pm

Well then when I asked where I could find this stuff I was only given this one. And I've asked more then once. And I haven't changed Dance or Kiss yet. Kiss will be changed soon as soon as I put some numbers together.

Glycine keeps complaining about the range on Dance and said it should be melee. So I just reduced the range casted and made it a single target instead of AoE. Dance would do 90 + 96% of agi to target, so about 90 + 150 (240) plus knocking nearby units away. I wanted to keep damage on the lower side because Flip Belt would deal damage when she jumps into a jump. Maybe making Dance a line nuke/dash forward and attack would be better and be liked more.

What do you mean linear and variable?
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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:09 pm

by interval i mean what you have now.
from x range to x range, it has this value
(example: 10% evasion at 300 range, 15% from 300 - 500 range, 20% at 500-700 range)

by linear i mean a steady progression.
has this value at x range, and increases untill this value at x range.
(at 300 range, 10% evasion, increasing to a max of 20% at 700 range)

it works out to the same thing, and its easier to code. Unless you specifically want it in intervals.



as to values for dance...
I am of the opinion that dance of death should be the more powerful of the 2 nukes (dance + belt).
I agree with the range, now; however you should increase the base damage on dance, because at early levels, your doing pitiful damage
(45 + 60%, 60 + 72%, 75 + 84%, 90 + 96%. And at 50-70 agility, thats a low 81/103/125/147 damage.

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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Glycine on Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:05 pm

You do realize you could have asked here in this thread and everyone would be happy to tell you.

That said, figure out what you have to do with Flip-belt to not make it do damage. If you're building a carry instead of a ganker, the added mobility of a blink is more than enough help. Even when she had Dance in Dawn of War, she attacked one unit at a time, not all units in a certain area, when she attacked multiple units.

I agree that Dance needs to be buffed in damage. I disagree with the fact she needs Flip-belt as a nuke.
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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Son007 on Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:12 pm

Okay. Increased damage on dance slightly giving it a 75/90/105/120 base damage without agi. If I removed the damage and some of the speed increase could I add a ms slow in the AoE she flips in, as if she's moving faster then others? Or just add some more speed boost?
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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Glycine on Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:01 pm

I would be fine with a jump and a MS boost upon landing, but not a slow, because the background for a slow doesn't exist and she's not going to Thunder Clap like old Autarch. You could even go with a 10/15/20/25% movement speed buff for 3/4/5/6 seconds.

That said, I still have misgivings about the crit. on the ult. Sure, it is an ult, but it'll generally have the highest upside of any crit. in the game once you hit level 16. And if you play to hit and run, you can proc the crit. on every engagement you choose to fight in, so the CD only applies to protracted/team fights.
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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by 13loodRaven on Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:18 pm

Is the ultimate a passive? If it is.. ZOMFG!? That will be bloody intense.

So fluff wise, the Harle-Kiss is a monofilament wire that is blazing hot, and its used to stab stuff with, causing it to spontaniously explode in a boiling mass of its own blood. Lovely.

So, what comes to mind when I read the fluff, I think; DoT, Heavy nuke. Caustic-finale type effect. Pretty much a garunteed death. An interesting alteration helps too.

Heres my rework of the ult:

Harle Kiss

Description: It buuuuuuuuuurnssss...

The Troupe Master targets an individual for Harlequins Kiss. Using her pure awesomeness of the traditional eldar-carry hero she also gains vision of the target. Lileath gains damage while only attacking the target (lets say 25/45/65) and a small movespeed boost. (+25 constant movespeed.) If said targeted unit is killed while under the 'Track' debuff, it explodes in a foul spray of molten blood dealing damage based on a percentage of the targets hp in an AoE of 500.
Deals 30/40/50% of the targets max hp in the AoE.

All units caught in this aoe suffer from the same damage source, except for the Harlequin, because shes just so awesome.

Cd: 40/30/20. Manacost: A decent amount. +55 per level. (Hard to figure out without stats)

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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Son007 on Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:37 pm

Changed Harlequin's Kiss, please comment. Also added two different abilities for Dance and Flip. Please comment.
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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Glycine on Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:20 am



For one, the Harlequin's Kiss does not slow units, it turns them to pulp and bones. Grass can fudge around with some things, but your effects don't really match up with what a Kiss does. I know it's really hard to have to redo a skill 3 times and I know you're trying to compensate for her lost damage, but Kiss shouldn't slow and she can't gain attack speed out of nowhere.

I'm strict when it comes to things set in stone. If the effect is there, you have to incorporate it somehow, not vaguely refer to it. If you want to use your imagination and perhaps give her an ult that isn't kiss (I know, it's a total shocker >>), then I have nothing to go on except what your interpretation tells me and can be a little forgiving if need be in that situation.

I still liked the killing creeps every so often, but the crit was the turn-off on the other skill.

First off, do you want her to be a carry? *answer the question* I personally view the Harlequin as an interdictor, someone who can jump in, disrupt as necessary, harass, and help with ganking. She has good anti-creep potential, but lacks the ability to take on heroes dedicatedly.

That's just my interpretation (and why I argued with you on this xD), but this is your build. I still want to know what type of character you're creating.
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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Son007 on Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:57 am

Okay. Changed up some skills. Don't except this to get good comments but here's a new idea. Skills are the same but got moved around and changed affect wise.
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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Glycine on Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:06 am



*approves, kind of*

But yeah, that looks much better, save for what you did on Dance. It still can't slow and she's not THAT fast to be able to strike more than a certain number of units in a set amount of time, so you might want to put a limit on how many things she can attack in a set area.

Numbers are otherwise numbers.

PS: See, Son? Not impossible to change Harle, if you do it yourself.
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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Son007 on Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:21 pm

Changed it a little, increased damage slightly and decreased cool down from 60/55/50 ---> 50/45/40.
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Re: [Remake] Lil'eath, the Great Troupe Master

Post by Son007 on Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:05 am

Ewww, double post. Anyways, made some more changes.
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