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[Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor

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Post by T3chW01f on Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:06 pm

Lictor

Grass Edit((
Story:
Lictors rove ahead of Tyranid ground swamrs seeking out pockets of enemy resistance and antive lifeforms to be absorbed. They are intelligent and possess highly developed sensory organs so they can see, smell, hear and taste their prey long before it becomes aware of their presence. Lictors appear to be a specialist mutation of Tyranid Warriors and are highly adapted to survive in hostile environments and a stalker/predator role. Stalking Lictors exude a pheremone trail which draws other Tyranid creatures in their wake. A larger concetration of prey stimulates a stronger pheremone response and brings a larger group of trailing Tyranids.

Stats:
strength: 22 + 1.7
agility: 22 + 2.7
intelligence: 16 + 1.4

movespeed: 315
range: melee

innate: chameleonic scales
The Lictor's is covered in chameleonic scales that cause it to blend in with whatever is behind it, causing it to be very difficult to target, and able to almost fade into the background completly. Passivly gives the lictor 2/3/4/5/6/7% evaision per 100 range the lictor is from its target. Can activate to become invisible for 10/15/20/25/30/35 seconds, dealing 100/150/200/250/300/350 damage upon breaking invis with an attack.
manacost: 50/55/60/65/70/75, cooldown: 25 seconds.
math: a 600 range unit would give the lictor a 12/18/24/30/36/42% evasion, while a melee attacker would have either a 0% or 2/3/4/5/6/7% evasion.


one: Flesh Hooks
Flesh hook are chitnous sinews fired by a sharp intercostal muscle spams, shooting out to allow the creature to snare their victims from a distance. Ensares the target unit to the lictor, causing it not be able to move farther than the current distance from the lictor. The lictor can close the distance between the target.
manacost: 110/115/120/125, duration: 3/4/5/6 seconds, cooldown 17 seconds.
mechanics: this checks the distance betwen the lictor and the target often, and if its greater than the distance from last check, it mvoes the target back a bit... causing him to not get farther away from the lictor. however, if the distance is smaller, it will keep that distance, allowing the lictor to get closer, and even pull the target backwards.

two: Feeder Tendrils
These are most commonly associated with the Lictor species, Genestealer mutants and other vanguard creatures. THe writing facial tendrils are sophisticated tasting organs able to sample and absorb information of all kinds from capture prey. Absorbed information is communicated to nearby Tyranids at a subconcious level, lending them a natural proclivity for attacking weak points and vulnerable areas. Every attack by the lictor, or attack agaisnt the lictor reduces the armor of nearby enemies by .1/.2/.3/.4. Whenever the Lictor kills an enemy hero, it gains vision of all heroes on the map for 5/6/7/8 seconds.
notes: this affects every enemy taht attacks the lictor, and every enemy that the lictor attacks (so a 1v1, the target would lose armor decently fast)

three: Rending Claws
Rending claws are usually short and powerful, tipped with damon-hard spikes or talons. They are quite capable of crushing plasteel and ripping through the thickest armoour with their vice-like grip. The lictor deals 5 bonus damage for every point of armor less than 5/8/11/14 the target has.
math: with 0 armor, at it would deal 25/40/55/70 extra damage per attack

ult: Hit and Run
Lictors strike without warning and disappear without a trace, using hit and run tactics to ambush enemy units and retreat before they know what hit them. The lictor becomes invulnerable to damage, loses collision, and gains 20/25/30% movespeed. but loses 100/75/50% base damage.
cooldown: 90/85/80 seconds, manacost 150/190/240 mana, duraiton: 5/6/7 seconds
mechanis: The invince would come from the actual skill, causing the unit to become untargetable, and ge the "unit is invulnerable" error. the reduced damage would come from a negative damage bonus, which only reduces abse damage + stats damage, so bonus damage from +dmg ietms, and he damage from rending claws would still take effect. ))Grass Edit


original suggestion:
Spoiler:

Lictors rove ahead of Tyranid ground swamrs seeking out pockets of enemy resistance and antive lifeforms to be absorbed. They are intelligent and possess highly developed sensory organs so they can see, smell, hear and taste their prey long before it becomes aware of their presence. Lictors appear to be a specialist mutation of Tyranid Warriors and are highly adapted to survive in hostile environments and a stalker/predator role. Stalking Lictors exude a pheremone trail which draws other Tyranid creatures in their wake. A larger concetration of prey stimulates a stronger pheremone response and brings a larger group of trailing Tyranids.

Agi Melee Hero

Innate: Stealth (passive/active) evasion vs ranged & windwalk

The Lictor's chameleonic scales make it an extrmely difficult target

1st skill: Feeder Tendrils (passive) critical

These are most commonly associated with the Lictor species, Genestealer mutants and other vanguard creatures. THe writing facial tendrils are sophisticated tasting organs able to sample and absorb information of all kinds from capture prey. Absorbed information is communicated to nearby Tyranids at a subconcious level, lending them a natural proclivity for attacking weak points and vulnerable areas.

2nd skill: Flesh Hooks (active) AoE +X stun +Y damage

Flesh hook are chitnous sinews fired by a sharp intercostal muscle spams, shooting out to allow the creature to snare their victims from a distance. The Flesh hooks are also sometimes used as grapnels to allow creatures to scale vertical surfaces at great speed.

3rd skill: Rending Claws (active, autocastable) +X damage and -Y armor to target for z seconds

Rending claws are usually short and powerful, tipped with damon-hard spikes or talons. They are quite capable of crushing plasteel and ripping through the thickest armoour with their vice-like grip.

Ulti Skill: Hit and Run (active) + move speed + invulnerability

Lictors strike without warning and disappear without a trace, and may Hit and Run.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:03 pm

i dont think fleshhooks should be an aoe stun... either a target point, or an arrow like skill.

also, find a diff name for hit and run Razz cause i dont think it will ever be used for running.

other than that looks good Very Happy

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Post by T3chW01f on Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:10 am

Well the reason I made it an AoE stun is because of both flavor text about Flesh hooks and their actual effects. I didn't see the ability to move through trees with ease, or moving over walls with ease being all that valuable as a skill. It's other effect for actual in game use was acting like a frag grenade in combat. So I viewed an AoE stun as how a close combat frag grenade would work. Though I suppose just an AoE burst of damage would work as well, but that doesn't include the fact that they're used to draw in people to gnaw on them a bit.

As for Hit and Run, well that's the actual name of the ability the lictor has that I translated into his ultimate. Also it would make for great hit and run tactics, run in do some damage say against a large push, maybe even try to take out the opposing hero, if they're easily killed, before the invulnerability goes down and run away.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:04 am

i know thats how you'd like it to be used, but i think most people would use it for a chasing/fighting skill more than anything, using it while actually fighting the heros rather than using it to run away... if you reduced his damage or disabled his attack or something, then it woul be more fitting of hit and *run*, but right now, making him imune to damage just encourages him to stick around dpsing ppl to death.

and my thoughts on flesh hooks... unless he has... *alot* of them, its not really befitting an aoe spell...

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Post by T3chW01f on Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:00 pm

Tryanids are considered to have a lot of them when they have flesh hooks. They use them to drag themselves up sheer vertical surfaces.

Well obviously it's going to be used for some DPSing, but and intelligent player would use it for a tactical strike and running away after making an important kill. A stupid player will end up getting themselves killed when it wears off.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:01 pm

fair enough

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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:52 pm

updated the first post with my proposed lictor idea

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Post by Fromundaman on Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:47 am

I like it. The innate seems a bit strong though.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:47 am

uve gota remeber thats physical damage, and by the time hes able to do lots of damage through his innate, itll either be late game, or hes sacrificed one(two) of his other skills to do that

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Post by Fromundaman on Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:47 pm

Hmmm... good point.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:21 pm

moving to completed as no one seems to have any further comments

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[Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor Empty Re: [Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor

Post by Glycine on Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:38 pm

Besides a change to deathleaper, just a few things I think we should look at.

For Feeder Tendrils, it makes no sense how enemies' armor can be reduced if they hit the lictor. For example, Vindi has no armor as it is, but hitting him from forever away reduces his own armor? Seems a bit garrulous.

Aside from that, I'll need to take a look at what skills Deathleaper has so we can modify.
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Post by Kiba[dok] on Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:25 pm

I agree with Gly how would they taste the attacker if hes a not in front of him(fluff says there on his face) ir if the attacker is a range because unless they can grow and know how to follow bullet back to the shooter
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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:34 pm

i really dont wanna modify this guy XD can we just rename him to deathleaper, and change some skill names? [Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor Icon_razz

and feeder tendrils is so:
1: hes not completly 1v1 oriented
2: in the fluff, feeder tendrils are kinda a 'passive' as such, not requiring the units that it 'feeds' off to actualy be attacked by the user.

feeder tendrils work more by 'tasting the air' than actual things


ok, so my fluff was wrong! yay.
but this is a prime example of making the fluff fit a skill idea, instead of creating a skill idea purely from fluff.
>.>

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Post by Glycine on Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:04 pm

Smooooth, Grass. xD Try and hide it in the closet, while you're at it.

And Grass, we haven't created any skill ideas from fluff. We're just questioning the current use of what you've created. There's a difference between making a new skill and questioning the validity of one.

I know we're supposed to ignore logic, but there's no justification for what you're trying to do. I know it fits in with the whole armor reduction, crushing claws, etc., but there needs to be a modification. It's like giving a Carnifex wings. <<

That being said, how does Feeder Tendrils as is not make him 1 on 1? He's a soft hero as it is, so do you propose sending him out into battle to get pulverized just to debuff the armor of the creep wave? Aside from the fact it makes no sense to reduce armor at range, it'll only really be useful (Which it technically isn't, since you're only reducing armor by 2-4 at the max) when you can rely on a hero to hit you.

Also, please state why you don't want to remake him. It's not a personal attack per say, but a Lictor isn't quite the same hero as the Deathleaper. I know it wouldn't be kind of us to remake Tech's hero, seeing as it is his and he hasn't been on in forever, but it's sort of our obligation to make the hero as complete as possible.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:19 pm

a deathleaper is a lictor with more special rules [Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor Icon_razz
and you can already draw similarities with the current lictor and the deathleaper.
and:
i do not wish to remake this hero because, imo, it has a unique skillset as it is, and attempting to remake it to follow the deathleaper's special rules would inevitably end up changing the core concept of his current skillset.

now, if u could just rename some skills, add in an effect here or there.. im fine with that... but theres no need to completly change up the hero just to make it fit the deathleaper.

thats all imho.

and the idea on feeder tendrils was that it 'senses the air' allowing it to determin weakpoints on nearby units because of their actions and proximity and such. so when units attacted its/their attention, they would be able to absorb their info from that unit.

that was my justification, not realising the tendrils actually need to be used on something while its up close and personal.
it would make sense if what i thought was true fluff actually was true [Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor Icon_razz

and it doesnt make his *as much* as a 1v1 hero, as he can affect other units without auto attacking them
it makes him alot less 1v1 oriented, because he still has an effect while he is disabled and not focused on auto attacking a single target

edit: and I know your eventually gona reply to this tonight, but im going to bed now sorry XD night! ill be on tom. work sucks [Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor Icon_sad

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Post by Glycine on Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:33 pm

I do see your point about his uniqueness. And if you really don't want the core of his skills to be changed, that's ok. But the fact is that the mechanics of the skills involved need to be changed. There needs not be any concept change behind them, but Feeder Tendrils specifically needs a change.

As for 1 on 1 orientation, Sigismund has a nice armor reduction aura that reduces more armor than Feeder Tendrils ever will. It still affects others when he's disabled and doesn't mean he has to auto attack everything, but he's STILL a 1 on 1 hero because of his other skills, and the aura only makes him more 1 on 1 oriented.

Even though you say that Feeder Tendrils will reduce his 1 on 1 tendencies, what do you think is going to happen when you give him a bunch of other skills solely for 1 on 1 attacking? Lictor's not a team player with the skills he has now. If he had Pheromone Trail or some other skill, then I could see your point. But your logic is tenuous at best.

If he's disabled, so what? He's an agi hero which translates into having the durability of a piece of paper. If you're disabled, more often it'll be the result of a spell, so you can't reduce their armor then, can you? In addition, because of how OP Crushing Claws are early-mid game, he's forced to gank and be a 1 on 1 hero because he doesn't have the strength to take many blows.

I like this hero, personally. He seems to be a good ganker, especially with his ult. I don't agree with how the Ult is implemented and how Crushing Claws and Feeder Tendrils work now, though. Additionally, Flesh Hooks is very potentially a broken skill just because early game you can drag people into outposts to get raped by cannons. In fact, all his skills are optimized to reduce his class's weakness, which are ranged characters and to get him into 1 on 1 combat.

That's why I can't see where you're pulling this whole "He's not a 1 on 1 hero" stuff, because his skills really make him one.

And as for Deathleaper, it would be interesting to have him, but I'm not going to press you on it. That being said, it would be very cool to have him still as a hero, even if he isn't this hero.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:35 pm

ok, so it doesnt make him less of a 1v1 hero, but it makes him more flexable than point and click and hope to stack enough -armor to kill.

and its rending claws not crushing claws >.>

flesh hooks isnt much of a drag cause the enemy can still move around, they just cant be futher than X distance to the lictor. yeah i know it *can* drag, but the fact that they can move around kind of limits its potention.

and whats wrong with the implementation of his ult? and whats wrong with feeder tendrils and rending claws?

and how would you change this into the deathleaper? just roughly

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[Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor Empty Re: [Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:48 pm

edited the OP with updateds to feeder tendrils

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[Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor Empty Re: [Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor

Post by a_broken_twig on Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:51 pm

Hey I'm new and i know its late but what if the Lictor's "Hit and Run" was a timed teleport. Where you teleport in and have so long to fight before it is forced to jump back to where it started; and possibly even a choice to go back before it dies

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[Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor Empty Re: [Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor

Post by Glycine on Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:29 pm

Hit and Run should remove his collision while active. Makes more sense for him to be going through trees to kill things.

As for teleport strikes, it sounds nice but I don't know how to logically justify it besides him being sneaky in plain sight? xD I don't think it's a good idea to make a ganker jump into the fray and then be forced back automatically because he's a ganker. xD He shouldn't be afraid to rush towards the enemy.

I still don't like what Feeder Tendrils do. It makes no sense to reduce armor from range. The vision is fine, but it has to do ANYTHING but reduce armor. It makes Rending Claws obscene because you're not only adding bonus damage, but this bonus damage and your damage will then be amplified by the negative armor of the unit you attack. What other effects could it have, though?
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Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:17 pm

the description of feeder tendrils says that it allows him to find weak points in enemies defenses with the knowledge he gains from owned enemies.
im extending the fluff a bit to make him able to 'feed' off his enemies that he hasnt killed, thus it triggering on attack.
he senses weak points in nearby enemies, because squad mates would know the make up and weaknesses of their squad.

and it synergises with his role as a dps ganker, and with rending claws, because you wont always have an allied hero that can reduce armor, and the effects of feeder tendrils prolly wont make a huge difference (like, if it gets larger than -5 armor easily, ill reduce some numbers)
and rending claw damage is either going to be pure or magical, to avoid the double penalty from having low armor.

and i agree that hit and run should remove collision

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Post by Son007 on Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:53 pm

Could 'Hit and Run' be an on attack invisible buff? When he hits an enemy hero he gains 0.6/0.8/1 second of invisibility for 12 seconds? Allowing to hit an enemy hero and gain the ability to strike without warning and disappear without a trace? Or would this be making the skill fit the fluff or fluff fitting the skill?

And for 'Feeder Tendrils' could it be; when the Lictor is attacked he gains X armor and when he attacks he lowers the attackie's armor by X? Or could you make it deal more damage the less hp the enemy has and change to lower their armor, "They are quite capable of crushing plasteel and ripping through the thickest armoour with their vice-like grip."

It just seems like you guys arent getting anywhere in the idea, so I'd thought I'd throw some ideas in...
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Post by Glycine on Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:57 pm

The Lictor is not god. It's not even a fully sentient creature. It may be able to detect a patch of open skin due to pheromones. It only is able to know enemies' weakpoints because it eats their brains. How does it eat their brains at range, grass?

I know it synergizes, but the skill's logic is flawed. Unless you make it reduce armor for every enemy he kills, which is a possibility...
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Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:15 pm

your too traped in the fluff,

to me i see: feeder tendrils, hmm lets him absorb thoughts and become aware of weaknesses.

im modifying the fluff of feeder tendrils to allow it to work at ranged using some wierd nid thing that doesnt need explaining.

and reducing armor for each killed unit would make it take too long to build up when most of the time you would need it right as you engage the enemy.


hmm, another idea for a harassment kind of direction, if we use son's idea for hit and run, making it passive or an autocast with a manacost thing (orb effect -on hit applies a 4 second perma invis with a .3 second cooldown. 50 mana per attack) or something, then make him reduce the armor of nearby units when he kills something (this would be like perma -armor... so an infinate duration buff)
he would be a great harrasser, going in, owning a unit, debuffing enemies, fading away, rince and repeat.

how does that sound?

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