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[Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor

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[Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor - Page 2 Empty Re: [Tyranid] Deathleaper - Tyranid Lictor

Post by Son007 on Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:21 pm

My idea was of a copy of another hero in Ninja's of B.net. His ult has a duration, cd and mana cost, and as the affect it gives him invisibility when he attacks and when he doesnt attack he doesnt benefit from it. If you do do auto-cast I would think the mana cost would increase with the level (seeing how he'll have more mana and be able to stay invisible longer due to the fact of it.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:45 pm

ioh yeah for sure the manacost would go up, but i was just putting that out there as an example.

and incase anyone notices: the perma invis would have 'auto acquires' toggled on, so as not to gimp his attacks.
and it would be an autocast orb, so u dony have to use it if you dont want to,

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Post by Glycine on Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:14 am

*bangs gavel*

Time to restart the debate on this guy again. xD

Scales: This is the skill I actually like the most (or disagree with the least). Just a few modifications.

A Lictor's invisibility primarily depends on its environment and cover and it seems rather unlikely you would catch it out in the open. I don't mind the range to evasion conversion, because at range, you're less likely to distinguish something, but the broken active invisibility needs a drawback. It's such that you can pull off a 700 damage combo in 25 seconds, which is kind of a little much.

Manacost is fine, but here's a potential limitation:

When activated, the Lictor may remain indefinitely invisible as long as it stays within 200 range of any structure or inorganic unit. If it goes beyond that, the Lictor gradually appears in 2/2.5/3/3.5/4/4.5 seconds, but may go back within 200 range of the structure to become invisible again.

If it strikes a unit, however, then invisibility is dispelled until the skill is used again. He, however, will gain pure damage on 1/1/2/2/3/3 attacks, after striking, as long as he strikes with all of them within 3 seconds. The Lictor must remain invisible for at least 10/9/8/7/6/5 seconds to gain the backstab damage. Cooldown of 25/23/21/20/18/17 seconds.

Flesh Hooks: This is a skill, after some research, seems to be fine. I can't complain with it too much, except I would add a distance limitation, somehow, so you can't drag someone 1200 distance into an outpost at level 2. >>

If the target is damaged to x extent, the flesh hooks will slip out of the target? I just don't want to see a potential abuse of it, because it's very powerful in its current state.

Feeder Tendrils: Ah, this skill. What wonderful memories (not really). But I think I've found a satisfactory compromise to eliminate the armor on being attacked. Let's work it like Ahriman's intelligence skill, except in a special way.

Whenever the Lictor kills a creep, he gains -0.02/0.03/0.04/0.05 armor loss on each of his attacks to creeps alone. Whenever the Lictor kills a hero, he gains -0.4/0.5/0.6/0.7 armor loss on his attacks to heroes alone. These effects are cumulative and have a maximum loss of X armor to creeps and Y armor to heroes.

For example, if the Lictor killed 200 creeps in a game, he would burn -10 armor from creeps on his attacks. And if he killed 7 heroes, he would burn 5 armor from each hero he killed. In this way, he plays more of an end-game carry, being able to learn from each kill and do more damage, gradually. I'm hesitant to make this an aura, though. It would be very, very powerful.

How's that sound?

Rending Claws: I'm considering replacing this skill with some version of Pheromone Trail. While making him do gigantic amounts of damage to units with low armor is nice, Rending is meant to ignore armor, not beat up units who have none.

Not to mention I put rending (pure damage) capability in the innate, so meh.

If I were to put Pheromone Trail in, it would probably be something like this:

As the Lictor stalks its target, it leaves behind a trail which other units can follow. This trail has the following effects:

- Allied units who follow the trail gain increased AS/MS.

- Allied units retain vision of where the lictor has traveled for 4/5/6/7 seconds.

- Allied units also gain vision of any target the Lictor has attacked in the last 5 seconds for 4/5/6/7 seconds.

It's not the best skill, but it does enhance the team element and make the Lictor a unit which facilitates slaughter.

And finally, the Ult:

This is probably the one skill I have the most problems with. Lictors are extraordinarily fragile and most people have acknowledged in 5th edition TT that their true role is now as a support, giving lots of offensive bonuses to other forces.

If it was actually hit and run, instead of run really fast and hit people, then it would make some sense. It just makes him chase down people, when in reality, he shouldn't be doing that, lest he get lit up like a Christmas tree in an inferno.

So I would suggest a more support based ult, one that allows him and his allies to tear holes in people. Let's see:

- Deathleaper marks out a target for death, allowing him and allies around him to gain extra damage (of both physical and magical type) against that target, with full vision. In addition, no forms of evasion will work while Deathleaper remains in range of the target (This means no regular evasion, blind, or triggered. You can't make people aim properly up hills, though >>) Any unit who is on his pheromone trail also gains these effects.

- Conversely, he could intimidate and reduce the combat potential of any enemy unit with every kill, reducing attack speed and attack with every kill he makes. Additionallly, he would have a chance to drive enemy units off in fear with every kill.

Those are just a few ideas. See what suits your fancy the most?

In essence, he's changed from a hard carry/ganker to a support/ganker, who has damage potential on his own and amplifies the damage of those around him.

Innate: Invis, evasion, guaranteed pure damage attacks
Skill 1: Hold and slight drag.
Skill 2: -Armor to creeps and heroes, separately, on attack, cumulative over time per kill.
Skill 3: Rending/Pheromone.
Ult: Offensive/Defensive.



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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:10 pm

I like feeder tendrils like that.
When you say aura... Like armor loss aura or an aura that causes alies to reduce armor?

I also like pheramone trail.
But it should do something for the Lictor.

As for the potential ults...
1: he already reduces armor which increases the damage units take...
And 2: doesn't for his role as a ganker. If he's killing creeps, he's not damaging heroes.
Deathleaper has a skill that reduces the leadership of an enemy character right?
Maby we could work with that?
Target unit, it gets a ton of debuffs or something.

Cause without rending and limited power on invis (which I mostly like) he doesn't really have damage.

Also for flesh hooks... I maaay be able to work it so thatbif the Lictor walks backwards it won't drag the target.

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Post by Glycine on Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:56 pm

Well, for feeder tendrils, the ability causes his attacks to reduce armor. It's not like Sigi's armor aura. If it was transmuted to an aura, it would cause allies to reduce armor on attack.

For Pheromone Trail, it's odd to give an effect that benefits the lictor alone, because pretty much everything that applies to his allies also applies to him. So he'll gain a passive AS/MS boost just by walking and be able to see where he had just traveled. What other effects were you thinking about?

And I support a target-unit massive Debuff, though I'd like to see a few of these effects. Pick and choose as you will.

- Vanilla damage amplification, whether through basic damage/attack speed or crit. chance on the target unit.

- Nullification of all evasion, even triggered.

- Decreased ability to counter-attack when Deathleaper is near (Either a decrease in attack speed/attack or a proc chance to fear and disable)

- Pseudo-invisibility: The target unit cannot see Deathleaper, but it appears on the mini-map and to all other units. Not sure if this is feasible.

What were the debuffs you had in mind?
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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:51 pm

for trail, ya thats fine. for some reason i was assuming that it wouldnt affect him.

ult:
i didnt really have anything in mind Razz
i just wanted to avoid +% extra damage, cause tendrils already does that.

altho for some reason i want to see the target take +non-% extra damage... altho i cant see how that will fit, or if its even needed... just a feeling Razz


hmmm.. how about this, call the ult Stalker (or some such similar name) that represents most of the rules that are specific to the death leaper. (reducing leadership of target model; rolling less dice for difficult terrain; test for night fighting when being shot; able to re-infiltrate; rending on a 5 or 6)

so when active (on a target unit), the Lictor becomes transparent, gains a (low-value) slow aura, gains max evasion from the innate, and the target has a large chance to miss and/or loses attack speed and/or damage, and possibly a periodic ministun?

this puts the focus a bit more on the hero instead of being more support, but it still works as a target soft-disable

im not a fan of vanila damage amplification, and theres no way to nullify evasion without giving every unit truestrike (which can be done, but truestrike interfears with orbs)

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
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Post by Glycine on Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:54 pm

I'd like to clarify stalker a little.

Deathleaper is invisible (No transparency, you can't do anything about it) to only the target unit, right?

I don't think a slow aura is appropriate, though. I think maybe an inability to move or hesitance to move into woods would work better.

42% evasion is quite powerful, Grass. I would suggest scaling the benefits a little, and not going to max. Maybe 12/24/36%, on attacks from the target unit alone.
And don't stack blind and evasion, it'll make the target unit utterly fail at trying to attack. You can still lower attack speed or attack, but not both.

And no ministun, as it doesn't really fit. I think a crit. chance on the target unit might suffice, though. Unless you're talking about a ministun on attack, but even that is too much on an Agi. hero. Don't make it rapemode, just make it hard.

And settle on a low duration. If you want to make a high duration, start stripping out effects. ._.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:12 am

he already has an invisibility, so i gave him transparency. It would be high value.

And i think of it more as a "stalking mode", so any defensive bonuses etc. that apply to the lictor would affect everyone, not just the target unit.
however, the "pray" would get additional debuffs to signify that it is, in fact, the pray.

a slow aura hinders the ability to move Razz
and i dont know if its quite possible to "hesitate to move into the woods" Razz
what i can do is cause the unit to be slowed by the number of nearby trees, but thats really the best i can do (which would be a good effect to add to the target)
also, the ministun was my idea of "hesitance" for the target. it would represent them... like tripping up or something... as they try to flee the deathleaper in terror. It would be like stunned for .25 seconds every 2 seconds... or something.

and i meant max evasion for the current level of innate >.>
and it is a duration spell... so active 42% evasion (at prolly level 25), on the ult, doesnt seem terribly bad to me.
but yes, i could lower the numbers a bit Razz

and did you notice the and/or? Razz i wasnt planning on having all 3.

i cant make the target unit only miss, because then it will stack with his evasion. (the only way to make a target unit miss is with the curse skill... which will stack with the lictors innate evasion)

so overall, i thought of this skill as a "stalking mode". If hes stalking a target, hes still going to be stealthy and stuff to the units hes not stalking, so I think the defensive bonus (transparency/evasion/"what was that" rule) should apply to all units, not just his target
then the target (prey) should get additional debuffs because it is the pray ("its after me!" rule). which would hider its ability to fight cohesively

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And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
"Behold The Stuff! It Is Good!"
And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Post by Glycine on Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:41 am

Well, you have a good idea of how it should be done, so do as you will. Your ideas look fine, just present a polished skill and there shouldn't be a problem.

*onto next hero*
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