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[Incomplete] Novice-Librarian Scamander Of The Soul Drinkers

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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:58 pm

the thing about this hero. a fact that you havnt adressed... once hes fired off his 4 nukes, what can he do? (and dont say autoattack, cause with his propsed skills, and stats to fit, he cant do any significant dps with only his attack)

and to build on gly's point
counters:
avatar (hes an anti aoe tank/dps)
harle (she can doge your spells with evasion, jump around a bit, she likes to stack str, giving her hp to tank your spells... yes this is best case... but in general shes good against u)
grey knight (drains your mana, has the spellshield, and the target manaburn... and is a tank, the anticaster tank)
celestine (str hero with revive and regen and an escape skill and dps, once the nukes are gone ur gona get owned)
chaplain (more on the tanky side with a spellblock and an amazing reduction ult, and can dps your face in after)
warboss (huge str, and a spellblock ult, and enough nukes/dps to beat you out... and at this point im gona stop mentioning dps, because pertty much any hero can outdps him)
doc (can make your nukes useless, while the target(s) can rape you/your team)
runtherd (grotshield)
kharn (tanky with heavy damage reduciton)
typhus (best tank ever XD)
lord of change (14 seconds of chain disable > all)
thirster (tank with magic damage reduction)
fex (epic tank taht can just regen it all back)

ok, some of these arent as hard counter-y as others, but it still proves a point
*THAT BEING SAID* your hero isnt bad... by no means is he a bad hero... but he has no *dimention* he can do one thing, and one thing only, and tahts cast his 4 nukes, weather u wait and time them, or chain them in a row... thats *all* he can do... he'll be the *BEST* nuker in the game... but thats all hell be able to do, and once hes *done* nuking, he wont be able to do much at all...

*THAT ALSO BEING SAID* i want to include him [Incomplete] Novice-Librarian Scamander Of The Soul Drinkers - Page 2 Icon_razz i really really do. i just think that he needs slight adjustments (one skill change) to fit alot better

*my suggestion* your ult and your inferno skill are similar, i would suggest changing inferno to something else that gives him more dimention

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Post by Glycine on Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:59 pm

*points at what grass said*
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:23 pm

and yet again all you've done is pointed out possible counters to this build so that being said you can take ANY hero and look at all the other heroes and you will guaranteed find as many hard and soft counters its simply the nature of an aos. so neither of you have made any valid points. well you have proven one and that is that if you look hard enough at all the heroes you can find counters for other heroes.

and thats liek saying all a harli can do is chase because she has her stun her jump and he flip so *all* she can do is chase should we change her? or all the carnifex can do is tank so should we change him? or all the zoanthrope can do is nuke should we change him? or the pathfinder can only shoot so should we change him? what im saying is every hero has a theme in mind when designed and they are designed to follow that theme. Mine was both fluff based and nuke based i wanted him to have extreme burst capability (understand what burst means it means the ability to do heavy damage in a short time with medium-long downtime before you can do it again) i have always enjoyed burst i always have its why i have a dk in WoW and a rogue as well they are both burst classes and its how i enjoy my dps. fluff wise not even inner fire exists i put that to kinda fill in the gaps but fluff wise all he does is blow shit up and set stuff on fire he doesnt buff himself or buff others or buff allies i simply put the debuffs to make it more then "just" nukes and to show a kind of effect it would have on someone. so with those in mind i designed a hero that bursts while really only burning shit in a manner so i satisifed both those needs when i designed this hero. and i truly beleive he will wotk jsut fine as is maybe some number tweaks but i beleive he will work fine

i think u mean dimension

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Post by Glycine on Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:02 am

Valid points? Valid points? We've made our valid points, but here they are again, in case you missed them.

1) Casting Cooldown will not be helpful to your playstyle. Your spells will probably have medium-long cd, like 15-30 seconds, with your ult being 80+. In fact, that'll be your worst enemy, because it'll determine whether you get raped or you rape someone.

2) Mana Cost: You state that your solution to mana costs is mana regen. This works when you have 1 main skill you use, so you can wait around 30-40 seconds for the mana cost of that skill to regen back. You have FOUR skills you use, each with a comparable mana cost of other heroes. You're not getting that mana back so easily if you cast spells a lot, especially if you're a strength hero.

Say you get Mark of Tzeentch. That'll give you 1 mana/second back. Say you have a total of 2 mana/second back. If the total mana cost of your four skills is 650, it'll take you a grand total of ~6 minutes to regain all your mana. Even if you use 2 skills with a total mana cost of 300, you have to wait 2.5 minutes to regain that mana.

As you level, it'll be less of a problem, but 4 nukes will drain your mana really fast. Have you ever thought about how feedback might just mess you up a bit? To other heroes, at least they have a good attack and some passives that help them. If you get drained of mana, your character's useless.

3) Lack of Flexibility: Your nukes have all these different effects. That doesn't make your character more flexible. You can stagger your nukes as to have the best effect, but that still doesn't make your character flexible. Your character can only do one thing, which is as you wished it would: Nuke everything to Kingdom Come.

However, what happens after you nuke someone, especially late game? You might take down one hero, but another hero's going to wait for you to nuke someone and then take you out. How are you going to deal with silence or heroes that can jump on you? Is he a good creep killing hero? Can he push lanes?

Maybe he can, maybe he can't. But having four nukes doesn't leave any room for any other skills that might improve his survivability/versatility/reactivity, and that is what I meant by lack of flexibility.


Is that clear enough for you? Can you read them? They're not in between paragraphs like before, so it shouldn't be hard.
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Post by Fromundaman on Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:44 am

Grass Hopper wrote:the thing about this hero. a fact that you havnt adressed... once hes fired off his 4 nukes, what can he do? (and dont say autoattack, cause with his propsed skills, and stats to fit, he cant do any significant dps with only his attack)

and to build on gly's point
counters:
avatar (hes an anti aoe tank/dps)
harle (she can doge your spells with evasion, jump around a bit, she likes to stack str, giving her hp to tank your spells... yes this is best case... but in general shes good against u)
grey knight (drains your mana, has the spellshield, and the target manaburn... and is a tank, the anticaster tank)
celestine (str hero with revive and regen and an escape skill and dps, once the nukes are gone ur gona get owned)
chaplain (more on the tanky side with a spellblock and an amazing reduction ult, and can dps your face in after)
warboss (huge str, and a spellblock ult, and enough nukes/dps to beat you out... and at this point im gona stop mentioning dps, because pertty much any hero can outdps him)
doc (can make your nukes useless, while the target(s) can rape you/your team)
runtherd (grotshield)
kharn (tanky with heavy damage reduciton)
typhus (best tank ever XD)
lord of change (14 seconds of chain disable > all)
thirster (tank with magic damage reduction)
fex (epic tank taht can just regen it all back)

ok, some of these arent as hard counter-y as others, but it still proves a point
*THAT BEING SAID* your hero isnt bad... by no means is he a bad hero... but he has no *dimention* he can do one thing, and one thing only, and tahts cast his 4 nukes, weather u wait and time them, or chain them in a row... thats *all* he can do... he'll be the *BEST* nuker in the game... but thats all hell be able to do, and once hes *done* nuking, he wont be able to do much at all...

*THAT ALSO BEING SAID* i want to include him [Incomplete] Novice-Librarian Scamander Of The Soul Drinkers - Page 2 Icon_razz i really really do. i just think that he needs slight adjustments (one skill change) to fit alot better

*my suggestion* your ult and your inferno skill are similar, i would suggest changing inferno to something else that gives him more dimention

Runt Herder's a bit of a stretch, if I do say so myself Razz
Mistress of Death, on the other hand... Singing spear for mana burn, and innate for magic immunity... Oh and the net. Ouch.

Other good ones:
-Lucius (Please nuke my shield... PLEASE!)
-Necron Lord (Can't nuke what you can't see... but everyone has this problem so meh.)
-Big Mek (There goes your mana... what now?)
-Karandras


You know... we've hit most of the heroes in this game...

That being said, I do agree with Grass' suggestion.
You don't need to make it a buff/debuff. Hell, maybe make one of his skills a passive that gives him back mana or something. I dunno... something to compliment him and help him do what he does best: Nuke stuff.


Also, to all of you: Don't assume that no one will get the innate until after all the other stuff is gone. I'd rather level 2 nukes and the passive than 3 nukes and suffer the effects. Also, the warp drive could help this hero tremendously, supposing he gets the STR armor and has life to support it.


I do agree that this hero being all about nukes may work against him, and that having another type of skill could help him be more effective and more fun to play, but he could work as he is now, but he would be much like some of the other nukers/support chars in the sense that 1v1 is not the situation you want to be in with him. I see him as a hero who goes in with a teammate or for a gank, nukes the shit out of the place, then gets the fuck out of there before any retribution can be made, and in that sense, he works.
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:58 am

@glyc
1.) thatsn ot a valid point at all i already stated i designed him to be a burst hero so you say i dotn pay attention and yet neither do you...
2.) with proper mana regen (2 spirit stones would be fine) youy will do more then ok i only get one with chapter master i only get one and i can spam grenade jsut fine which withs its cd and mana cost is the equivelant of multiple nukes

so again invalid cause mark of tzentch is obviously not something your getting for good mana regen you get it for mroe of a filler

3.) how does that make sense? all my nukes have different effects as you stated yourself meaning they all do different things and are more effective in different situations which in itself is flexibility... (being useful in multiple situations and having more beneficial effects at certain times more then others)

how does that make sense either if he has 4 nukes 2 of which are AoE's so yes he will be an effective creep killer and an effective pusher.

and that is not flexibility that is diversity so again all invalid points as i have already previously stated and please dont go trying to insult me your the one who cant even use the proper words to define what you are trying to say you say u want him to be flexible when u actually want him to be diverse because in his current build he is flexible

Is that clear enough for you? do yo uget it this time? they arent in between paragraphs so can you read them now? stupid ass little flamer we alrdy tried to agree a long tiem ago that we wont flame individuals and here you go attempting to flame me on false grounds non the less. jsut cause ur gettign upset cause im disproving your points dont attmept to flame me to try to gain soem ground is jstu disgraceful.

@formun
again as ive stated earlier i can 100% gurantee you can find a way for every char to be countered by multiple chars if you look as hard as all of you are looking now so thats really irrelevant.

and so far all you and grass have stated is you want a new skill but havent suggested one... ill tell you right now i am NOT going to suggest one because i do NOT want him to change. i liek him very much as is and beleive he would be extremely fun and successful if used properly (using a priority sysytem as i stated)
so if you want a new skill than suggest one you cant be an advocate of change then suggest no change. you obv have some ideas use those and create skils out of them

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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:17 pm

with proper mana regen (2 spirit stones would be fine) youy will do more then ok i only get one with chapter master i only get one and i can spam grenade jsut fine which withs its cd and mana cost is the equivelant of multiple nukes

so again invalid cause mark of tzentch is obviously not something your getting for good mana regen you get it for mroe of a filler

grenade costs 90 mana, thats *one* nuke with a low cd, u have *four* nukes with *much* higher effects, theres *no* way just a spirit stone or two will get u the regen you need (this is a good thing, to ofset the *immense* power of the hero.)
and mark of tzeench is for early game, where 100% of .2 regen adds only .2 regen but getting a mark gives u a guaranteed 1 mana.


*snip*who cant even use the proper words to define what you are trying to say you say u want him to be flexible when u actually want him to be diverse because in his current build he is flexible
flexible, from dictionary.com:
–adjective 1. capable of being bent, usually without breaking; easily bent: a flexible ruler.
2. susceptible of modification or adaptation; adaptable: a flexible schedule.
3. willing or disposed to yield; pliable: a flexible personality
diverse:.
–adjective 1. of a different kind, form, character, etc.; unlike: a wide range of diverse opinions.
2. of various kinds or forms; multiform.
(diverse = can do many things, flexible = can change)
they *pretty much* mean the same thing, and he is neither.




@formun
again as ive stated earlier i can 100% gurantee you can find a way for every char to be countered by multiple chars if you look as hard as all of you are looking now so thats really irrelevant.

yes, u can look at every hero and find hard and soft counters, but for your hero, we can find a hard/soft counter in *almost every other hero in the game*


and that is not flexibility that is diversity so again all invalid points as i have already previously stated and please dont go trying to insult me your the one *snip*

Is that clear enough for you? do yo uget it this time? they arent in between paragraphs so can you read them now? stupid ass little flamer we alrdy tried to agree a long tiem ago that we wont flame individuals and here you go attempting to flame me on false grounds non the less. jsut cause ur gettign upset cause im disproving your points dont attmept to flame me to try to gain soem ground is jstu disgraceful.
re-read his posts, he doesnt once make an attack on you in any form, he is mearly presenting an argument, so these two paragraphs are unnecessary and dont make your arguments look any better.

im also gona add this in:
Betrayer_kharn wrote:
i think u mean dimension
you clearly understood what i ment, and who are you to point out bad spelling? Razz

*READ THIS PART*
and so far all you and grass have stated is you want a new skill but havent suggested one... ill tell you right now i am NOT going to suggest one because i do NOT want him to change. i liek him very much as is and beleive he would be extremely fun and successful if used properly (using a priority sysytem as i stated)
so if you want a new skill than suggest one you cant be an advocate of change then suggest no change. you obv have some ideas use those and create skils out of them
im gona say this answering this quote:
unless for whatever reason im horribly mistaken, NONE of us are trying to tear down your hero, or tell you it sucks... i know that *I* at the very least are offering ways to *improve* your hero. Because i know that as powerful and good as he is, he has *blaring* weaknesses and some poor design problems. He will be *TOO* good at what he does (i mean this, unless they *try* to counter him, hell prolly rape face till levels 20+) and then fail *miserably* at everything else. we are just saying that for him not to be broken one way or another, he needs to change slightly.

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And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
"Behold The Stuff! It Is Good!"
And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:37 pm

Is that clear enough for you? Can you read them? They're not in between paragraphs like before, so it shouldn't be hard.
really grass so when he said that that wasnt an attempt to demean me? so he said this statement in attempts of being nice? no he said this in attempts of using sarcasm to attack me because thats what sarcasm is. so instead of blindly defending someone and tell me i was wrong look at what a person previously states but thank you Smile cause as i have stated that was NOT intended as somehting nice or friendly it was however intended as SARCASM which in its very sense is meant to attack someone by demeaning them.

as for flexible and diverse no they do not mean the same thing flexible is this sense is able to be useful in more than one situation that is flexible and he is indeed useful in more then one situation different debuffs are good at different times diverse on the other hands means he is a blend of more then one thing in this case he is not diverse he is all nueks which is what i want him to be and you dont you are both advocates of diversity in my hero you cant be advocates of flexiblity because he already easily fits that role. so no they aren o basically the same thing.

diverse:(webster.com)
1 : differing from one another : unlike <people with diverse interests>
2 : composed of distinct or unlike elements or qualities <a diverse population>

flexible:
–adjective 1. capable of being bent, usually without breaking; easily bent: a flexible ruler.
2. susceptible of modification or adaptation; adaptable: a flexible schedule.
3. willing or disposed to yield; pliable: a flexible personality
diverse:.
–adjective 1. of a different kind, form, character, etc.; unlike: a wide range of diverse opinions.
2. of various kinds or forms; multiform.

are in no way *basically* the same so you are very wrong on that aspect. they can be used as synonyms in certain instances yes but in our case flexible means useful in many situations and diverse means not the same thing different and unique my character is flexible he is however not diverse as i have already stated. so again you dotn want him to be flexible you want him to be diverse because ur entire arguement has been he needs a new skill because he has 4 nukes. which says you want him to be mroe diverse. note the *blank* neeeds to change because all of *blank* are the same. that is DIVERSITY not flexibility



and so far all you and grass have stated is you want a new skill but havent suggested one... ill tell you right now i am NOT going to suggest one because i do NOT want him to change. i liek him very much as is and beleive he would be extremely fun and successful if used properly (using a priority sysytem as i stated)
so if you want a new skill than suggest one you cant be an advocate of change then suggest no change. you obv have some ideas use those and create skils out of them

please grass tell me where in that quote i stated you were atempting to tear down my hero or where i said u said it sucks? i DIDNT i stated all of you want new skills but you dont suggest them. so i wll state it one more time

i am NOT going to create a new skill because i do NOT feel he needs one i fell he will work jstu fine. you on the other hand DO feel he wont work fine as is and you DO feel he needs a new skill. so one last time now propose a new skill not an idea i am not lookign at your ideas because i dont feel he needs anything new. you do. you want a new skill so propose a new skill its really quite that simple. i am not in any sense saying you said my hero sucked or you are trying to tear him down thats twice now u have properly misquoted me do not attempt t use my words against especially when i never said thevery words yo uare attempting to claim i said.

i am simply saying i beleive he can perform jsut fine. so if i beleive something is fine as is why would i seek to change it? i wouldnt. you on the oher hand propose he is not fine as is and seek to change him. so make a proposal creat a skill that you beleive is beneficial and we can review it and then ultimately come to a ecision. but instead you have all wasted time attmepting to disprove me when you could have simply propsed a new skill a LONG tiem ago liek i have previously suggested.

as for the mana regen yes it is 90 mana i already stated it was cheap but when u add in the cool down and how often you spam that skill you come very close to the equivelant of multiple nukes. which is easily over come by mana regen and spirit stone > mark of tzeentch in all aspects it will *maybe not instantneously* but will overcome marks regen and it has mroe int = more mana so in all aspects mark of tzeentch is a bad example of a *good* mana regen item where as spirit stone is not on the basic principle thae mark = 1 mana per sec thats fixed it will never change ston = 100% thats not fixed and constantly scales as you level so again mark = bad example of good mana regen itme where as ston = good example

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Post by Fromundaman on Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:09 pm

Again, I really do like this hero idea, and hopefully, when I have time to look into this hero/have my computer back which contains my codex, I can look into finding him a new skill that compliments him without straying from his theme, and thus making us all happy. ATM, I can't do that though.
Soooo...

Yeah, I liked the hero, read over the complaints, reread the hero, then indeed saw he was going to get raped endgame by almost every hero. You are right, every hero has counters. That's one of the things I really like about this game. The problem with your hero is that when I was making my list, I only found 6-8 heroes that DON'T counter him. That right there is a problem.
That being said, this is all talking in 1v1, and he is visibly not a good 1v1 character, and better suited to sneaking in, dealing 10 bazillion damage, then getting out of there ASAP while someone else distracts everything.

Also, it's true that spirit stones do help drastically. However, due to the manacost of the skills in question, I would expect you'd need 3 to be perfectly fine. (I use 2 on Warp and FS, so meh...)



As for why you should change it: The guy implementing your hero doesn't feel he works well right now. By refusing to change anything, even something minor, you increase your chances of having this hero shelved for an indefinite period of time.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:54 pm

Betrayer_kharn wrote:
Is that clear enough for you? Can you read them? They're not in between paragraphs like before, so it shouldn't be hard.
really grass so when he said that that wasnt an attempt to demean me? so he said this statement in attempts of being nice? no he said this in attempts of using sarcasm to attack me because thats what sarcasm is. so instead of blindly defending someone and tell me i was wrong look at what a person previously states but thank you [Incomplete] Novice-Librarian Scamander Of The Soul Drinkers - Page 2 Icon_smile cause as i have stated that was NOT intended as somehting nice or friendly it was however intended as SARCASM which in its very sense is meant to attack someone by demeaning them.
ok i missed that quote, sorry about that, didnt see it at all.. *however* thats still not flaming [Incomplete] Novice-Librarian Scamander Of The Soul Drinkers - Page 2 Icon_razz its sacasm, which isnt flaming. its uncalled for yes, but its not flaming.
(negative points for gly [Incomplete] Novice-Librarian Scamander Of The Soul Drinkers - Page 2 Icon_razz)

Betrayer_kharn wrote:as for flexible and diverse no they do not mean the same thing *snip*
ok, sorry, a flexible *role*
(and for the most part, in an AoS context, flexible and diverse are similar -> not the same, but similar)
and however, hes not all that flexible, because still, hes only usefull in a nuking/teambattle situation

Betrayer_kharn wrote:*snip* flexible means useful in many situations and diverse means not the same thing different and unique *snip*
so flexible means can do diff things, and diverse means having diff things?
Betrayer_kharn wrote: please grass tell me where in that quote i stated you were atempting to tear down my hero or where i said u said it sucks? i DIDNT i stated all of you want new skills but you dont suggest them. so i wll state it one more time
your taking that quoted paragraph out of context. U never specifically said that we were trying to, but the general tone of your arguments almsot say that. i wanted to reinforce the idea that we are trying to help improve your hero, where (3) people have now said that its going to have problems.


Betrayer_kharn wrote:as for the mana regen yes it is 90 mana i already stated it was cheap but when u add in the cool down and how often you spam that skill you come very close to the equivelant of multiple nukes. which is easily over come by mana regen and spirit stone > mark of tzeentch in all aspects it will *maybe not instantneously* but will overcome marks regen and it has mroe int = more mana so in all aspects mark of tzeentch is a bad example of a *good* mana regen item where as spirit stone is not on the basic principle thae mark = 1 mana per sec thats fixed it will never change ston = 100% thats not fixed and constantly scales as you level so again mark = bad example of good mana regen itme where as ston = good example

lets assume that your regular skills have 15 second cooldown... each... (most likely less for others) you can cast frag 4 times... (realy 3, but say 4) thats... 360 mana... now assuming cause your skills are powerful, they have an above average manacost (150 -180) if you (for some reason) spam frag on every cooldown, u can equivilent two of your spells...

mark is an early game mana regen [Incomplete] Novice-Librarian Scamander Of The Soul Drinkers - Page 2 Icon_razz and spirit stone is a mid-late game item... mark costs 650, stone costs 1450 [Incomplete] Novice-Librarian Scamander Of The Soul Drinkers - Page 2 Icon_razz spirit stone > mark, but not till levels ~6

and:
Fromundaman wrote:
As for why you should change it: The guy implementing your hero doesn't feel he works well right now. By refusing to change anything, even something minor, you increase your chances of having this hero shelved for an indefinite period of time.

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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:22 pm

all that being said however, im prolly gona get him in anyway (When i get around to it XD map dev is pretty much on hold right now cause of lots of school and work) i just *know* hes gona have more problems than u can see, and im trying to fix that *beforE* he gets in the game

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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:23 pm

and i have stated multiple times propse a new skill and you still have a list of quotes and come backs and no skill.... i am not going to propose a skill because i dont feel he needs one so you fell he needs a new skill so PROPOSE one one of you take the time you are taking to write you're counter lists or thinking about how hes falwed and divert it into creating a new skill and we coulda had plenty of new skills by now instaed we waste tome doing this back and forth bullshit (sorry not trying to be angry or upset or mean its jsut the best fitting word).

as for my tone i always laugh when people say this because its really a line of text it can have no tone expect for one you create on your own pretenses. as for my realistic isnt hasnt been angry or me feeling that your are attmepting to destroy my hero it is simply calm and stating i feel he is fine. where as you feel he isnt ok cool beans theres Smile

so for a third time propose a new skill instead of continuing this back and forth nonsense. it just annoying now. i get on ym comp check my emails says i have an ew post and i HOPE its a skill proposal and every time now i have been disappointed. and simply opened it to see all it is is people attempting to point out flaws in my thought process instaed of trying to improve the hero.

recap:
my perspective: he is fine as is
your guys' perspective: he needs change

this is all we have established in these 3 pages now.... this is what im trying to say lets stop wasting space on restate our already stated points of view and how bout you propose a new skill this time Smile with nuimbers and effects and all that jazz

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Post by Glycine on Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:02 pm

.....

What's the deal with your stance, Kharn?

It is not our obsession to change your character. We have lives too. It is not our job to think of new skills for your character. We may comment about the skills already proposed and offer new skills if we wish, but nowhere in the discussion rules state that we are obligated to create new skills for your character.

If we feel like it, we will. But the thing is, we believe your character has a bigger problem than just one missing skill.

We could have had plenty of skills had you been open to ideas and perhaps thought of a few that suited his fluff and skill and gameplay, but did you propose any new skills? You know the Soul Drinkers well, fluffwise, and you know the AoS well, so what's stopping you from creating a simple new skill?
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:44 pm

i dont want a simple new skill because again i feel he is fine as is you are theo ne who feels he needs chagne so porpose a change if it needs adjustment fluffwise then easy enough if i agree with it we will seen on the less you sit here and claim you want him to change and thaat he isnt ok on his own yet you have done nothing to change him....
and how do you figure you havent porposed any ideas for me to be open to smart one. prpose a skill cahnge and i can look at it all we have done here is argued symantecs we have established only 2 things in our 3 pages of discussion i think he is fine as is and you feel he needs a chance. so offer a change you cant jsut say oh he needs a change and leave it at that. the point of this forums is indeed if you feel he needs a change to offer a change. cause im sure as hell not gonna creat a new skill because i dont feel he needs it. so you want be to be open minded give me something to be open minded about.

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Post by Glycine on Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:15 pm

Well, he's a scout, so he should have some sort of infiltration skill. It'd certainly make him better, being able to nuke and then slip off into the darkness or back to a base to take the negative effects.

Can't be too strong, but should be around 15 seconds of invis with a fair amount of cooldown.
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Post by Fromundaman on Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:07 am

Fromundaman wrote:Again, I really do like this hero idea, and hopefully, when I have time to look into this hero/have my computer back which contains my codex, I can look into finding him a new skill that compliments him without straying from his theme, and thus making us all happy. ATM, I can't do that though.

As for why you should change it: The guy implementing your hero doesn't feel he works well right now. By refusing to change anything, even something minor, you increase your chances of having this hero shelved for an indefinite period of time.

These were, I think, the two paragraphs that you seem to have neglected to read or pay attention to. As I said, I want to make a skill, but I know nothing about your proposed character, nor do I currently have the resources to find it right now. Also, considering that at most, all my posts in this thread would have taken a cumulative total of 10 minutes to write, and that I come up with, at best, 3-4 *good* skills in the same amount of hours, I disagree with the opinion that we could have dozens of skills by now Razz
Also, why are you hoping to see new skills if you don't want him to change?

Bah, anyway, it's not like we're on a tight schedule. This hero, even if ready to implement right now, would still not go in for another month or two at best, so why rush? Let's take our time and do it right.

Betrayer_kharn wrote:
as for my tone i always laugh when people say this because its really a line of text it can have no tone expect for one you create on your own pretenses. as for my realistic isnt hasnt been angry or me feeling that your are attmepting to destroy my hero it is simply calm and stating i feel he is fine. where as you feel he isnt ok cool beans theres Smile


And I am sorry, but that is absolutely false. Tone is part of writing. It is obviously not an auditory tone, but it is still there, and usage of tone is actually one of the things that separates good writers from mediocre or bad ones. However, all writing displays tone.


Glycine wrote:Well, he's a scout, so he should have some sort of infiltration skill. It'd certainly make him better, being able to nuke and then slip off into the darkness or back to a base to take the negative effects.

Can't be too strong, but should be around 15 seconds of invis with a fair amount of cooldown.

A lot of characters in W40k have infiltration. However, I'd rather we not make everyone have a bland invis or WW (I know, Ironic considering one of my characters has a bland invis Razz ). I know that's not what was suggested, but I just wanna throw that out there. Let's not have infiltrate be the new Crit.
Also, I don't think an invis really fits his theme...
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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:54 am

i agree, an invis wouldnt mesh well with his theme/other skills... well it would... but not in a way taht would let him do other stuff...

i think he will prolly need a skill that supports his skillset, while letting him still support or do other things
random thought, top of my head: aura of heat(or something) whenever an enemy under its effect (has a spell cast on them) they take (x damage, or x effect, or x thing happens)

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Post by walt_jabsco on Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:52 am

walt_jabsco wrote:mabey to make him contend later game u could replace the dot -armor with a soul burn type move that silences and reduces dmg done also i was thinking a passive called mentoring tyrendian or something like that where it makes all his moves inc based on int or str like an alll around scaling buff to all moves or mabey and activateable move that like stores up over time or percast that when activated inc dmg or reduces effects
whoever wrote that is so cool...anyways instead of getting no where argueing about this guy lets all talk about how great mephiston is
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Post by Fromundaman on Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:56 pm

Well, one thing I have to say is regardless what happens, we should make his nuke damage scale with int, which would be really easy to do and make him less neutered in late game.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:32 pm

fair enough Razz i was gona say that he does an imense ammount of damage... but 1350 at level 16... that would pretty much own every hero...

so im thinking make it do less inital damage earlier, and keep it the same or slightly higher later... (more damage based on int, rather than base damage+less int...)

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Post by walt_jabsco on Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:36 pm

whats wrong with heros who are bomb early and poop late i love zues
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Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:37 pm

lol Razz it makes for a more interesting game Razz

and dont doubt zeuses power late game.. his static field makes him amazing later in the game where he can own off 1/10 of your hp per spell

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Post by walt_jabsco on Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:26 pm

its more like 6 percent i think but anyways even then no real help to team and u just get one shoted by mort anyways
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Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:27 pm

lmao, ur playing the wrong games Razz i regularirly own as zeus XD hes one of my favs Razz anywho! wrong map! and get on! im gona host a game

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Post by walt_jabsco on Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:06 am

im not saying zues dosnt own im just saying later game with good players hes not very good
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