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Total Votes : 8

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God Amongst Mortals

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Post by Fromundaman on Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:54 am

Ahhh... that makes more sense then. Oops.
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:53 pm

to be fair though to say they need to shed their necrodemrmis to feast on a star cause of its immense heat implies that the c'tan is immune to natural law but the necrodermis isnt so in this case wouldnt he also have to shed a necrodermis to go into a gravity well? seeign as how it wouldnt be able to take that immense amount of pressure? that is if you are still sticking to the fact that necrodermis doesnt become immuen to natural law...

not saying i dont like it jsut saying if your going to say mine wont work cause of the fact the necrodermis cant handle it (even though its not a star anymroe just a time space rift) then the sam rules would have to apply to a gravity well seeing as how it couldnt sustain that pressure

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Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:02 pm

immune natural law lets them walk through stuff, fly etc. show off by not obaying gravity and stuff.
(and if the necrodermis was fully immune, then really... they wouldnt be able to be damaged, and since they are, they can get owned by a star)

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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:02 pm

haha thats how i feel seeign as how they are immune to natural law that would mean anything naturally occuring in the univers they are now immune to and i beleived its in their necrodermis as well since they occupy it (e.g. they can fly, or their necrodermis wont melt at extreme heats, or they can sustain a massive amount of pressure from a gravity well)

i was jsut saying to use his hypothesis that they would need to sheda necrodermis assuems that the necrodermis itself isnt immune to natural law in the sta case itd melt in this case it would get completely crushed BUT i beleive that since they are infused with the necrodermis it is also immune to natural law which would have to be the case for the proposed ult to be correct "fluff" wise as he has so foundly stated he wants it to be

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Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:05 pm

so what do u say to the fact that the necrodermis can be ruptured/destroyed?

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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:18 pm

i beleive thats jsut done to make them balanced in the tt cause really in all their fluff u never really hear of it even still

lets say u agree with tht point that it can be ruptured/destroyed by mortal weapons how then is he able to stay within this necrodermis when he is in a gravity well? would the immense pressure not rupture or destroy the necrodermis...

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Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:19 pm

thats when being imune to gravity comes into effect Razz
(and while were at it, why doesnt every other unit affected by the well get crushed too? *cause its a game* Razz)

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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:49 pm

i alrdy said its cause its a game but YOU two are the ones who attempted to use a hypoothesis based on real life to say my skill wouldnt work and im saying if ur are truly going to stick thorough to that hypothesis it would have to apply here as well

and hes immune to natural law thats more then jsut gravity see myp oint here lol
you claim hes immune to all natural law but then say o hes not immune to heat but he is immune to gravity when both are natural laws Razz

im just saying either say the hypothesis doesnt apply to our game since as u claim "its a game" or if you are going to apply it you need to apply it to ALL spects not jsut something you dont like

so either c'tan and their necrodermis are immune to Natural Laws (all of it not just immune to it when u want it to be or when you dont want it to be Razz) or jsut the c'tan is immune to natrual law (using ur hypothesis) so using your own reason why my ult wouldnt work it would be the same reason your ult couldnt work u gotta pick one lol Razz

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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:28 pm

if no one has any more comments im gona star this for complete

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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:57 pm

you still havent answered me are we usig the hypothesis or not if so then my nightbringers ult is still very viable..

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Post by DeusMechanicus on Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:21 pm

Who says he's relaying on immunity to natural laws to resist hte gravity well? Manipulating space to create the anomaly, he could just as easily make himself a protective 'cocoon', if you will, denying gravity's hold on him or something similar to your flight skill. In the same way, it is possible though the Nightbringer has never shown the ability to do so, and he is one of the most fleshed out of the C'tan, he could create a protective barrier around his Necrodermis- but he'd be expending energy to feed ... for a snack? Not to mention the power it'd require to create even a small star. And a random NEcron artifact that could create a star pushes the envelope of belief even in a scifi setting, especially when there's ZERO fluff supporting the Necrontyr even looking into such technology. The Necrontyr had no reason to create a device to create a star when the C'tan had obviously lost all interest in feeding off stars and were consuming sentient beings across the galaxy.
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:09 pm

haha i already changed his ult so the whoel last part of your arguement was invalid Razz


you already stated what i was trying to stae and that is its possible for a c'tan to feed on a star without the need to shed on their necrodermis =]

and as for expending energy to feed on a snack is it not the same principle here? a few creeps and a hero are at most a "snack" to any c'tan are they not?

(this is all more or less for if we introduce a star eating c'tan since as i stated his ult has already changed Smile)

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Post by DeusMechanicus on Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:12 pm

The energy it would require to protect its necrodermis from the heat generated on the photosphere of a star would FAR exceed any energy he got from feeding, especially for such a short time. It's like giving someone $1,000 so they'll give you $10.
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:40 pm

i would have to disagree with that for 3 reasons
1.) we dont know the amount of heat living metal as a necrodermis can withstand
2.) we have NO idea how strong the necrodermis is when fused with a c'tan
3.) we have no idea how much energy it would take to create such a "cocoon" for all we know it could be simply a whim for them to make it

so theres no way anyone can say that with certainty because we cant know that for certain Smile

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Post by DeusMechanicus on Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:08 pm

Well, we know Necrodermis can be ruptured and we know that melta / plasma weapons hurt it quite abit (atleast in fluff)- ex; the defenses of Mars vaporising the Necron fleet. We also know they can't create protective energy fields at whim because there is nothing in fluff or TT that has them ever doing so, even when it would be extremely beneficial to them. And I think it's safe to say if a melta / plasma weapon can harm the living metal of a regular Necron body, the heat of the photosphere of a star could melt away the Necrodermis of a C'tan in a very short time.
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:17 pm

but we have established they can make a protective barrier yet you calim it cant be done at whim.....

and yet ur defense that this ult would work fluff wise is because he would make a cocoon at whim....

so which is it? can he or cant he?

even still lets say they take the time to make this cocoon however long it takes we still have no idea as to howmuch energy it takes to create and waht it can sustain so that being said either they can eat a start without sheddign necrodermis and can survive a gravity well without necrodermis getting destroyed due to creating a cocoon in almsot an instant or they cant make this cocoon at a fast pace so can tehrefore not survive either events fluff wise

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Post by DeusMechanicus on Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:56 pm

That was one theory, and it was just off the top of my head. The other example was he could escape the gravity well the same way the C'tan fly, by going ethereal and ignoring the law of gravity. Which actually gives me an idea- can we make him "ghostly" when he casts View the Void? That'd be cool. I suppose it'd take a whole seperate model though. Anyway, I do not believe the "Immune to Natural Law" applies to heat. Heat isn't a law. Gravity, for example, is a law. Massive heat burns everything in the Materium (Necrodermis is included in the Materium). Wether it be daemon, human, eldar, ork, Tyranid, et cetera. Nothing within the materium can survive a trip to a star's surface. They, the C'tan themselves, are immune because they are not from the Materium. The material they're encased in is. Maybe a limited portion of the C'tan's power, such as the ability to temporarily pull the material into the aether (note: temporary), is transferred into the metal once they enter it, but the mere fact that it can be destroyed, and by many different things, proves that not all of of the C'tan's powers are. Anyway, unless you have something constructive to add, other than simply trying to (seemingly) spite myself / Grass with endless arguements concerning the blackhole skill, please stop posting in my thread. Thank you.
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:39 am

lmao deus your a funny man Smile i find a hole in ur supposed theory and u immediayel say im trying to spite you and grass.

when the sheer fact that it is no longer a star ult disproves this point

what i am however doing is using your exact hypothesis (which u used to dosprove my ult) and applying it to ur ult because you cant just choose when to apply your hypothesis (e.g. to my ult simply because u didnt liek it) and then when your spose to apply it simply overlook. especially since you are the one who wants it to be so close to the fluff.

as for your example its a poor one gravity effects all in the materium as does heat so they are indeed both natural laws. and again could they not do the same thing here? simply make themselves aethereal so they could feast on the star without the need to shed their necrodermis

the only thin im showing you here is how not solid your hypothesis was and how willingly you were to defened against my ult (the one you simply didnt like) but here on ur ult (the ult you do like) you are so willing to find flaws and exceptions to your hypothesis and then attmepting to say they dont always apply when thats a contradiction in itself. why wouldnt they go aetherreal when eatig a star (so as to prevent from having to acquire a new necrodermis) but go aethereal in a gravity well....

and then as i stated you say heat isnt a natural law because it effects everything materium (or in nature...) and yet gravity is a natural law because it does effect everything materium (all of your examples and everything else are efected by gravity in our materium or natural world) a natural law is a law that effects our natural world e.g. the laws of heat or the laws of gravity

so dont attempt to tell me im spiting you simply because i am showing you obvious holes in your hypothesis. i am just trying to better understand your hypothesis so next time you use it to say somethin couldnt work fluff wise its because it actually applies and not simply because you dont like the proposed skill Smile and also if you are truly going to stick to your hypothesis (to make it true to the fluff) we apply this hypothesis to anything pretaining the c'tan and natural laws so that it can stay a ocnstant in determining it works fluff wise. (that is assuming of course you still follow your hypothesis and have not revised it which as it shows now u have not)

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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:18 pm

im not reading this, but stop it. enough. i dont care whos 'wining' but at this point its an 'im right - your wrong' argument. no ones gona win.
stop.

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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:33 pm

im not trin to win anything again you dont read

all i have tried to state is there was a proposed hypothesis to make something true to the fluff because tahts what we want and if we are oging to stick to this hypohtesis we have to apply it to ALL aspects it includes (e.g. every c'tan we propose) and then either remodify the hypothesis or jsut completely drop it. it not a i win or an im right or an im doing this to spite you. its a ok this hypothesis is suppose to keep something true to the fluff so let us apply where it can be applied to keep whtever its applied to true to the fluff

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Post by Glycine on Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:48 pm

Saved you the trouble. Razz


Last edited by Glycine on Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Fromundaman on Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:26 pm

His post said he wasn't going to bother reading it... Of course he didn't read it.
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:40 pm

lmao glyc
i simply used the hypothesis to see if it appleis to his ult because HE said that with HIS hypothesis my ult wouldnt work so if it is used to deisprove one thing then it msut be appleid to all other things it could disprove otherwise its not really a hypothesis simply a reason for you to find because you dont like somehting

i can 100% guaranteed i probably used that as a defense to NOT summon units because as anyone know i try to avoid summons as much as possible because i feel it is starting to get use to much so you've deffiitely tried to pull it out of context there. so that whole first part of your arguement has no grounds because MY arguement was that there are currently to many summons and jstu because they are a general doesnt mean they should have summons the last time i proposed summonable unit was on aun'va. so please now what your talking about before attempting to use me as an example against myself

as for your last statement ive already said exactly this taht in the fluff there is no way we actually know the limits of their power deus is the one who attempted to put a limit on that with his hypothesis which if its going to be used to determine if one thing is effective it should also be applied to something almost the same as that (inm this case jsut a idff natural law but same concept)

as for not being immune they have to be immuen to some extent otherwise they couldnt fly...

so your 1st part of the arguement completely pointless because that wasnt my position at all and your 2nd point true on the not kn owing extent of his powers but false on them not being immune to natural law.

so while yo uattack the grounds of my arguemnet for being faulty your grounds are also faulty.

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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:25 pm

im debating on deleating these last 4 posts or not

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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:27 am

lmao go for it if you really want to jsut funny that u say ur not gonna read it then try to say wht its about so either uve read it and misinterpreted it or u havent read it and ur assuming its a who wins what competition either is not a desireable outcome

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