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[Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death**

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[Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death** - Page 2 Empty Re: [Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death**

Post by DeusMechanicus on Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:38 pm

Those two examples don't go against established fluff for WH40k. Instead of creating a skill around some canon aspect, you chose to make your own and totally disregard all facts that contradict it. But, whatever, it isn't my decision- just seems stupid.
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:02 pm

i havent disregarded any "facts" against it because there aren o facts anywhere in the entire fluff that state my story never happened or that my story did happen if you read what i said earlier i developed this story because there is indeed nothing that can prove or disporve.

and both those examples go against 40k fluff eldritch storm launches a single powerful bolt and lucius was never able to blink around his target as he does in our game. nowhere in the fluff does it say thats possible but also nowhere odes it says its impossible so we are using that gap in fluff to create our own fluff so we can make it more catered to an AoS play style

you had one fact that contradicts it and that was he stopped feasting on stars but a fact that supports it is altough he does he no longer has followers as he once did and he is near starving for power so it is quite possible he would eat a star again to simply get that burst of power until he can gain more followers. other than that no fluff "disproves" me at all cause there no fluff stating there was a device of such and theres no fluff stating there wasnt a device as such

the only thing that im doing is building my ult around an assumption that the nightbringer would feast upon stars for even a small burst of energy in his present weker state

if we put him at the state he was when he decided to stop feasting stars we would have to make him near unstoppable which we cant do in an AoS

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Post by ChangerOfWays on Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:07 pm

There was an instance in an ultramarine book, when the nightbringer was released after escaping before his tomb thing caved in, he fed on a star, so i think it could work.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:12 pm

"eldritch storm summons a storm of cracling energy that sends out arcs of lightning towards enemy units.".. that is hardly a single bolt, and fits quite well with its wc3-ness
lucius is depicted as the fastest, most agile, deadliest one on one combatist in the universe, thus a skill that makes him do that makes sense (and its not so much a blink as a rapid attacking of his enemies)
we didnt *create* fluff for thsoe skills, we adapted existing fluff

what your doing here is creating fluff from nowhere, when a couple people have already told u that it makes no sense.
(and as dues pointed out, and u conveniently ignored, he would have to shed his necrodermis to feed off a star, then be put into it again, which would not be possible in a battlefield situation)

now, if u changed the effects and gave it a different name... it might fit better, but as it is right now, 'creating a star' to feed on, does not work.

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Post by ChangerOfWays on Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:19 pm

you could maybe make him simply summon a black hole, since they are immune to the natural laws, you could say he bent time and space to move a star there. He wouldn't necessarily be "Creating" a star, just moving one there. The Dragon does much the same thing, so why not Nightbringer?
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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:21 pm

thats an example of how to reasonably change it Razz
i was thinking that would fit the dragon better tho

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Post by ChangerOfWays on Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:22 pm

yes, but maybe make the dragon do it on a larger scale, since hes better at it.
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:27 pm

haha ur funny grass cause see hes making fluff up there cause there no fluff that says he has the ability to summon a black hole yet you dont chastise him for developing his own fluff but you chastise mine non the less with a fact made from oens own developed fluff Razz (he said hes pretty sure which alrdy showsh es assuming that such happens theres no evidence saying that they need to shed the necrodermis and none saying that they dont need to he simpyl developed his own fluff off of existing fluff)

as for my examples
farseer: i havent read any fluff (sides the description) on eldritch storm but as i stated in the TT it hits a target once and onlt once

lucius: you are wrong here i am sorry but i know (i developed the skill and its basis) he is one of the greatest swordsman but there is NO evidence supporting that he moves at near light speed and follows his tartget cause really lucius would never do that he takes time and makes each of his slices precise which you cant do as such a continuos near light speed pace so we did indeed develop our own fluff off of existing fluff to better suit our AoS Smile

non the less i do liek your suggestion chang and cudos to you for actualyl developing your own story stead of jsut sitting there syaing mine was wrong then offering no fix Smile

(note in first paragprah wasnt gettign angry or mad or insulting you or attempting to say you were wrong jstu couldnt htink of a better fitting word then chasties although it is a lil harsher tone i jsut found it iornically funny that you tell me not to do it then he does and you tell him good job Razz)

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Post by Fromundaman on Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:19 am

*cough* I thought writing had no tone Kharne... (Okay, I'm nitpicking, and I'll cut it out now.)

For the fluff, it seems there are kinda-somewhat examples for both working (He feeds on a star when the ultra-marines chase him from his tomb world, and Dragon makes Black Holes apparently?), though one is better suited for the Dragon, and both are going to make people who play the game recreationally and have not read the last 3 pages scratch their heads as to where we got these.

Also, if we do use the star, please don't use a 'renegade band of Necrontyr' in the fluff, as although it could work due to the fact they aren't Necron yet, it just sounds weird for Necrons to have renegade anything, and unlikely that Necrontyr would, due to their rather united purpose.

Also, while I agree that changing winds to suit an AoS is a reasonable change, I just want to point out that pushing them away could also serve purposes in this as an Anti-gank and pushing tool. However, this works both ways.


That being said, here's a rather rough suggestion for a Fear of Death type skill:

It would be an activated skill that works kind of like avatar, but with radically different effects.
Within a certain distance of him, foes have a certain % chance of either getting feared, rooted, slowed, miss (Due to shaky hands) or stunned.
When he is targetted (Be it by attack, auto-attack, spell (Targetted or AoE), or even just clicking on him), the victim suffers a % chance of the above, as well as a chance that the attack or spell fail.
Also, when targetted by a spell, there is a chance that the caster, terrified of the Nightbringer, breaks his concentration, allowing the dark forces of the Warp to overcome his mind (Chance to deal X/Y/Z damage and/or summon Chaos demon?).
Finally, any ranged unit close enough to him to suffer these effects or targetting him suffers an even smaller chance to "critically miss", and accidentally shoot another target near the Nightbringer.


Of course, either the %s would have to be fairly low for all of the above, or some effects need to be cut, because as I typed it, that ult looks a bit OP. However, that's the concept I was thinking of.


EDIT:

One thing I forgot, would it be possible for the innate to make him fly, but still count as a ground unit for the purpose of spells and attacks?
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Post by DeusMechanicus on Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:23 am

Actually, my hypothesis of shedding the necrodermis comes from acouple well known facts- 1. C'tan float damn near on the surface of a star while feeding. 2. Living metal is strong, but not impervious to heat- and can be destroyed. Easy to connect the dots there. And in Mechanicum it gives hints as to the limits of the Dragon's ability to control time and space in his general vacinity. Creating a black hole might be alittle much (unless he is at full strength, but no one but the Emperor and the other C'tan have seen him at), but it is feasable. There is no fluff to support the Night Bringer having now, or ever having, the same ability. As for Lucius, I belive there's a fight between Lucius and Loken in a practice cage and Lucius strikes are lightning quick and deadly accurate (Loken wins by cheating- punches him in the face). And the Farseer, in the DoW II intro the Farseer's lightning (multiple bolts) almost wrecks that Force Commander.

And, actually, there were renegade Necrontyr ... but they were considered renegade because they refused the C'tan. But the faithful (see? opposite of renegade) lured them to the Deceiver and he turned them into Necrons against their will.

Anyway... Overlooking the fact the Nightbringer's never shown any aptitude for doing such ... him creating a temporary gravitational well would make alot more sense than him creating a star and then eating it..
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:15 am

@fromu
we can change the fluff to whtever it needs to be changed too teres plenty examples of everything in fluff everywhere

and jsut to kinda point it out you see what i was saying u developed a fear of death and its exactly as i siad it would be an incapacitate/slow/immobilize and now u added a kind of silence effect so although i think that fits fear of death as i awlays kenw a fear of death skill would indeed look like that i jsut think thats a little to bleh for me i dont wanna play with an ult that just a immobilize/incapacitate/miss so althioughy thats a great suggestion for a fear of death i developed my ult to actually avoid that because as i stated there was really no way to do fear of death without incorporating those effects Razz

@deus u see its a hypothesis which means its your fluff basedo ff of existing fluff i never said it was right or wrong i was simply saying there was no fluff that said thats what happened and no fluff that said it didnt happen. and all i stated was that we know living metal in itself is that way but living metal infused with the essence of a c'tan i hypothesize is a lto stronger then it would normally be

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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:35 am

ok so modified the ult a little and to compensate you fromu i added a new second skill

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Post by Fromundaman on Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:07 pm

While I would thank you, Gaze of Death is a better 2nd skill, and one of the most important to NightBringer IMO. You should keep that and scratch mine if your intent on keeping the other ult.

That being said, there was a bit more than just that (And no silence, but I get what you mean), but yeah. Didn't exactly give it much thought, but there's only so much you can do with Fluff and WC3 restrictions in general. As I said, a bland damage ult isn't necessarily more varied, especially when it sounds like a modified version of Morphling's ult from DoTA, if I remember it right.

That being said, it's up to you guys. I just threw that concept together in an attempt to give another choice, and to not make it *too* bland (The Fear of Death concept that is.).
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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:57 pm

yeah, the old gaze of death fit better i think Razz

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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:23 pm

haha kk figured id throw it in Razz but ill change it back haha

as for ur reference you gotta understand ivep layed dota like once or twice at the most so when you make those references idk wht ur talking bout and i didnt have his ult in my mind

and although im not syaing its extremely vivde itsm or then a bland damage its liek a vortex thats pulling them towards the center so they spin around it and get pulled to the center and it does dmg per sec but stars of with a blind and then the duration of the ult itself is extremely random which adds flavor in its own

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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:28 pm

as a general rule: avoid using random chance (numbers) to balance (unless its in theme like warphead Razz)

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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:34 pm

haha the whole point is because it is unpredictable (liek the warphead) even being a c'tan creating a rift in tiem will be unpredictable and the life of this "summoned" black hole will be unpredictable lol so i dotn want to give it an exact time its hwy its randomized Razz

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Post by Fromundaman on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:05 am

So, I thought about a way to make that general theme more original, and I think I came up with something better:

Fear of Death:

Stops creep, hireables, and hero respawn timers for 10/15/20 seconds.

I'm too tired to write out the info I had in mind earlier, but basically this would be because his opponents would be too scared to come out and face him.

Also, the numbers may be off, because I'm not really sure what would be balanced.

This would be a HUGE pushing tool if used right.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:28 am

creeps spawn every 30 seconds, doesnt matter what level it is, it will only stop one wave [Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death** - Page 2 Icon_razz

oh, and @kharn:
again, using random chance to balance is a bad idea.
unless its part of a theme(like warphead, his hero is centred around randomness, so it makes sense, but the nightbringer is most definatly *not* centred around randomness; thus, its only a balance mechanism, or its just in there for lore reasons, which isnt nessesary for this type of spell. i suggest u take it out. when in doubt, go on the lower-mid end of your random. either way, numbers can be changed)

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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:35 am

@grass
haha but im not doing it to balance XD im doing it to fit the theme so ur confusing me you say dont do it unless it fits the theme and here it fits the theme of the ult (as i stated its a time sapce rift its 100% unpredictable) but i still cant do it lol

i dont know where you got the idea i was doing it to balance it cause im not im doing to add mroe flavor not balance i never though it needed balancing i jsut wanted to add more flavor to it. and i think its best to keep it this way until we play test cause theres really nothing wrong with it at all

so again its not usng random numbers to balance its using random numbers to add mroe flavor and make it unpredictable

@fromu
i guess thats not bad but its an extremeyl bland ult and as grass showed ud need to increas the time so skill wise i guess its not bad just really bland

as for would i enjoy using that skill when im playing not so much doesnt fit my palystyle at all its just boring to me haha Razz that and i dont think id use it that much becuase yeah it turns of creep but that also means you lose 250+ gold of farming for each wave thats stopped not my idea of a beneficial ult haha Razz

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:42 am

Betrayer_kharn wrote:@grass
haha but im not doing it to balance XD im doing it to fit the theme so ur confusing me you say dont do it unless it fits the theme and here it fits the theme of the ult (as i stated its a time sapce rift its 100% unpredictable) but i still cant do it lol

i dont know where you got the idea i was doing it to balance it cause im not im doing to add mroe flavor not balance i never though it needed balancing i jsut wanted to add more flavor to it. and i think its best to keep it this way until we play test cause theres really nothing wrong with it at all

so again its not usng random numbers to balance its using random numbers to add mroe flavor and make it unpredictable

and your confusing me Razz i know why your doing it, u just said ur doing it to add flavor to the skill (based on lore of a blackhole), which i also said.
and im saying its a bad idea, unless it fits the theme of the *hero* the nightbringer doesnt even have any other sort of chance skills (barring the evasion and gaze, but tahts a different concept of chance)
the range of 2-(4?) seconds is very huge in this context, so ur ult could either (kinda) suck, or be (very) good. this would be a bad thing to do.
(But yeah, leave it as it is if u want, but its prolly not gona make it into the game Razz)

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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:53 am

haha if youre going to hold a skill because ur to scared to playtest it and see what happens then so be it Laughing

or you could do what we have been doing and if we think something MIGHT not work (and i emphasize the might your whole arguement is on the basis that it might not work which means theres no sure saying whether it will or wont) and implement it into the situation you think it might not work in (the game) so you cna playtest it and make necessary change

lmao thats what i would do if i were designing a map based off of 40k implementing 40k heroes that i think MIGHT not work id give em a try and see what happens thats just me though Smile

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:03 pm

im by no means scared, but i enjoy the personal attack.
just that i know a design flaw when i see one

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[Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death** - Page 2 Empty Re: [Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death**

Post by DeusMechanicus on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:04 pm

Yay for flaming!
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[Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death** - Page 2 Empty Re: [Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death**

Post by Betrayer_kharn on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:19 pm

haha it wasnt a personal attack at all i simply stated what u stated without even so much as a hint to testing it to see the capabilities of this skill you threw ur power around and said hes not going in unless hes changed the way YOU want him to be changed simply because u thik it MIGHT not be good the way it is and all i said was lets test it the way it is and see if he truly does need a change or not Smile somehitng u neglected to mention

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