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[Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death** - Page 3 I_vote_lcap63%[Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death** - Page 3 I_vote_rcap 63% [ 5 ]
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[Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death**

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[Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death** - Page 3 Empty Re: [Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death**

Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:33 pm

couple things:
Betrayer_kharn wrote: because ur to scared
has *nothing* to do with the argument at hand, and is just an attack on the person, not the arugment

Grass Hopper wrote:
(But yeah, leave it as it is if u want, but its prolly not gona make it into the game [Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death** - Page 3 Icon_razz)
it refers to the skill
game != playtesting

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[Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death** - Page 3 Empty Re: [Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death**

Post by DeusMechanicus on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:34 pm

Well, it is his map ... he can do whatever he wants. If he doesn't like it he doesn't have to put it in. Arguing with / insulting him probably aren't going to help your case any.

Anyway... Just a suggestion;

Fear of Death

"The Nightbringer has often delayed the death of his foes to extract every morsel of terror from their souls."

Enemies within 1000/1250/1500 are overwhelmed with horrifying hallucinations, forcing them to face their own mortality. Every enemy caught in the AoE suffer % loss to HP / Mana over duration of spell. Total HP / Mana drained is transferred to Nightbringer and all CDs (other than this spell) are reset at the end of the spell. Nightbringer cannot attack for the duration of the spell.


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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:37 pm

when u state its not gonna make it into the game that implies the enitre game seeing as how playtesting is still the game its jsut the game before its released to the public

and i liek how you only quote the scared part and not the wholething so here
haha if youre going to hold a skill because ur to scared to playtest it and see what happens then so be it

again as i stated you yourself said itsn ot going to make it into the game the game implies playtesting as well because palytesting is the game its jsut pre public version of the game

i was simply stating if youre going to toss a skill out before its even tested taht is indeed to be scared so again not a personal attack simply a fact based on what you said

so next time instead of saying game in general say something like
"it might not make it into the final game but we will paly test it and see"

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:38 pm

hmm... im not sold on the cooldown refreshs...
(and this is just a fluff issue, but halucinations are more the decievers thing, make it more of the nightbringer being the one instilling the fear of death in everyone, feeding upon their... whatever he feeds on Razz)

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Post by DeusMechanicus on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:40 pm

I meant it as "Images That Aren't Really There" ... such as the Nightbringer showing someone an image of him killing their family or something. Inspires terror. Which Nightbringer loves to snack on. The CD part is because he's refreshed with all the new energy flowing through him. He just ate, he's got energy to put to use.


Last edited by DeusMechanicus on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:40 pm

@deus
never once did i state he coudlnt do it in fact my exact point was the opposite because he is the creator and thats exactly what i stated sos ure tht points valid (not rlly)

anyway considering he already has a life gain in gaze of flame dont u think another might be a little much?

that being said whats the %? and also jsut to come to an agreement since he alrdy ahs a life drian and im iffy on another i could repalce his cirrent life drain with this one? but meh

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:51 pm

GOD DAMNIT, i refuse to repost what i just posted and lost cause forums are gay...

quick sum up,
taking out the 'cause your scared' part erases your arguemnt (if your gona withold a skill, then so be it. see? no argument? adding in cause your scared makes it. and cause your scared definatly has nothing to do with the argument at hand, but just serves to insult the person)

being scared often isnt a reaosn for compltly not testing soemthing
(ex => perfect hero, but his ult kills every eney on the map. i ignore the ult. am i scared? or is the skill flawed?)

and sorry, your right i shoulda clarified on the game/playtesting
but to me:
game = final copy that people play in public
playtest = the work that creates the final ame

so what i shoulda siad is it prolly wont make it into the *final* game. sorry

and insight: were arguing about random duration. ill let u ahve your final word, but im not arguing about this anymore

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And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Post by DeusMechanicus on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:51 pm

The name "Gaze of Death" doesn't really fit those effects... I know it damages in the TT, but gaining life from it doesn't really make sense.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:53 pm

heres an idea:
possibly make gaze of death the effects that fromundaman suggested, and make this skill what it suggets... ther we go! effects dont copy eachother

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Heroes:
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:01 pm

gaze of death is a heal because in its fluff it says it takes the life essence of people and idk bout you but when im taking the life essence of someone it means im prolyl gettign some life essence back out of it

but to be fair if we r going off that a life gain doesnt realy fit the name fear of death but it works here because in the fluff (just like mine) nightbringer feeds on those emotions (in gaze of flame he feeds on their life seesnce) so we both did the same thing urs used fear of death mine used gaze of flame

@grass
are u talking about his fear of death skill? cause he has no gaze of death skill and if so then the names copy each other.... even still though i already stated while fromus fits fear of death i jstu wanted mroe then a % to immobilize or cc in some way and i even tried incorporatign his skill but yall didnt liek that and now im saying since this porposed skill is a life gain/drain and mine is a life drain/gain i can simpyl rename gaze of flame fear of death and then put this skill in its place...... there we go! no ones copying anything and his skill gets implemented (feels liek ive said this before XD)

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:02 pm

hmm... i must not have checked the OP in a while... hold on!

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Post by DeusMechanicus on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:03 pm

I don't remember the Nightbringer going, "This is 'Gaze of Death' move! BWAHAHAHAA!" in the fluff ... He does feed off life essence. All the C'tan do. It's what replaced the stars' energy in their diet. "Gaze of Death" has nothing to do with him feeding. With "Fear of Death" is him using the fear he put into the galaxy to feed.
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:07 pm

deus please go read the codex fluff for gaze of death
"the c'tan's eyes blaze with dark fire draining the life energies of thsoe around him"

thats why its a life drain cause in the fluffi t says it drains the life energies of thsoe around him Razz

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:10 pm

gaze of death doesnt replish life in TT, it drains it...
(ummm... thats confusing, and could be argued, so lets say... after a hard days work, your energy is drained. does the day of work have your energy? no, u just lost it XDh hurray for bad examples)
all c'tan have a drain life innate ability that causes enemies not to recover wounds, and that can be represented in the suggested gaze of death

!now! for skils...

the nightbringer moves his current gaze of death up his ult, and it gains the effects that deus suggested, and he regains fromundamans fear of death skill in its place
(names are interchangeable, the important thing is that his ult would be the huge aoe life/manadrain, symbolizing the nightbringger feading off the souls and emotions of his enemies, and the other would be a bunch of negative effects when the nightbringer is targeted, symbolizing him putting the fear of death into his enemies when they try to confront him)

EDIT: oh, and a nit-picky kinda change, but on the innate, instead of flying, just remove collision (it ends up working the same, but he doesnt gain any hight, he can just walk through stuff)

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:14 pm

i know it doesnt repelenish life in tt it drains life energies ( to me when u drain life energies from people its going to you)

to go off your example your long day at work drained your energy that means all the enrgy you had went to your work effort (thats why its drained) so your work effrot gained your energy while u lsot it cause it was draining it Razz

and again with me and my palystyle i would prefer to jsut replace gaze of flame with his life drain cause like i said i would want to represent fear of death in mroe then jstu a cc which is why i decided not to go with it cause i find it more entertaining to summon a black hole then have an activate AoE life drain rather then a passive cc and an AoE life drain

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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:15 pm

and sure on ur change if u want lol i think itd be cooler if he flew cause liek lets say they run throguh the woods if u jsut walk through trees would u lose ur LoS?

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:24 pm

well, true enough... but.... well i cant think of an example to express what i mean XD damn u kharn!!!! Razz

anywho... ok lets say this: you were drained from a long day at work => the effort got the energy, but the day doesnt make use if it. i hope u know what im saying... the idea of this is just to get my point across that draining doesnt nessesarily mean he has to make use of the thing he drained... XD

(and actually, the sucking life from their enemies is a trait innate to all c'tans... not something that is specific to the nightbringer's gaze of death)

-im not answering the part on your opinino on blckhole vs gaze of death - we've lready discussed our opinions on this subject)-

and actually, i would only be able to change his fly-high using the innate, cause *using* the crow-morph skill would have *really* wierd effects on heroes(potentially crashing the game - damn u blizzard!!)
so i would create a vision dummy on top of him, and remove his collision - giving the same effect as flying, without the flyhigh

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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:31 pm

idc how it happens my onyl concern would that be flyign hed have LoS if he were to fly over tress Razz and jsut wlaking thorugh them he wouldnt and i dont my skill to fuck over whoever uses it cause they get bad LoS lol Razz

your right it doesnt necessarily make use of it but in both of our skills we chose to make him make use of it lol

and i never said u stated your opinion i dont know how you guys after this many heroes and this many posts dont get im a WAY more offensive player and ur offering passive changes to a hero i really think would beb etter suited as offensive Razz idk why u guys havent gotten that yet its been showed time and tiem again i prefer offense yall prefer passiveness and this is shown in all the cahnges u guy have ever suggested in my heroes because every1 of em made em more passive then they originally were Razz

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:41 pm

ok, simple explanation Razz:
itsnot possible to actually make him fly (it would prolly crash the game) but i can remove collision, and make a dummy unit that gives flying vision, amking it seem like he is (cept hes not in the air >.>)

i know how you play, i know how we play, and it all comes down to what sutes the hero better. in this case i might end up doing both sets... if one doesnt fit, then ill swap out some skills and see which one fits better
but im *not* restarting the debate on weather blackhole fits him over some other skill Razz

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:46 pm

well grass go dl a map called Naruto Vs Bleach and play the hero deidara cause he gets the ability to fly (granted its his ult) but he still gets it and it doesnt cause any crashes

they do it through a metamorphosis tht givesh ime flight but he keeps the same skills he has currently at same level they are jsut a timer bar (for the change) replaces ur xp bar other then that its the same hero jstu with flight Razz

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:48 pm

wihtout playing it. im almsot 100% positive its all triggered, and he doesnt *actually* fly [Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death** - Page 3 Icon_razz cause using morphing skills ahve strange effects when not used how its suposed to

(if you *really* want, i can add in the flying hight [Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death** - Page 3 Icon_razz its just not really nessesary)

edit: what im getting at here is the codex sais (as well as being able to walk on air => flying) they can pass through solid objects... in the end it doesnt really matter if his hight is changed, because either way it will have the same effects. but what im suggesting is makeing him walk through stuff is so much cooler than flying.

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:52 pm

i alrdy said idc lmao i wasj sut letting you know he flies in the sense that hes above the terrain and he keeps his LoS and when he comes down if you come down in tree u get stuck lol all i said was go try it and see wht happens i jstu think actually flying or looking liek ur flying would be cooler then jstu passing through things Razz

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[Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death** - Page 3 Empty Re: [Incomplete] Nightbringer the C'Tan of Death**

Post by Fromundaman on Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:31 pm

In a similar arguement, Kharne, go play EOTA, and you'll notice half of the skills don't affect flying heroes, because they have to be based on pre-existing skills which you then modify, and there are a lot of skills that don't affect air units, meaning that even if the game doesn't crash, it will still fuck with balance pretty bad.

On another note, I am wholly for the idea of Nightbringer regaining HP through lifedrain in some way or another. He feasts on emotions of his enemies, Gaze of Death is said to "drain" energy, even if he doesn't regain it, and in DoW (Which I realize is not as important, but I pull it out when it supports a certain interpretation of Fluff) he lifesteals when summoned.
That being said, I really don't care which skill does it, I just think something should. It seems like it could work well as either of them, but as Kharne mentioned, both is probably too much.

Also, since a lot of pages have gone by since my last post: Yeah, if creep spawns are every 30, then that's probably not a good skill, since to make it better duration-wise would absolutely rape the hero respawn timer.
Not quite sure how it's bland though... Can't think of a similar effect in any AoS I've seen yet. The real problem is that it's not really good.
And your right, if used wrong, it would be bad (lose gold), whereas if used right, it could rape (well, the basic idea anyway, since with my duration, it wouldn't help as much as I thought it would.).



How exactly did you envision this character's playstyle? He comes off as a mage-tank to me, and is kind of the role (Well, i know he's a god, but if he were to be turned into some type of Archtype, that would be it.) he seems to fill in both the fluff and, to a certain extent, DoW.


Also, a quick mention, coding in a character with faulty skills just to show the creator of the hero that it is a faulty skill is a really bad idea, since when you take it out, you need to go through the whole brainstorming and coding process again, slowing production. This is even more true considering we only have 1 coder.



Why are you picking so many fights this month? Sheesh...


Last edited by Fromundaman on Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Oops. Put one sentence in the wrong paragraph, and as such it made no sense.)
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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:35 pm

right, i forgot about that too... a shitload of skills arent allowed to target air units XD

so i propose the 'fake-flying' be used instead of making him a flying unit Razz

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Post by Betrayer_kharn on Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:47 pm

lmao for a third time idc i just lie kflying better all i stated was that in NvB he flies and EVERY skill in the game works on him even while hes flying

furthermore it can be unique and bland at the same time how is simply stopping creep spwaner not bland? it hasn o oohter efect does nothing else and is in that sense bland...

on ur other point there no proof that it is indeed faulty yet theres simply an arguement that it MIGHT not work again i iwll emphasize might here. this is why you code it implement it and truly decide through genuine playtesting if it really doesnt work or not. because its a MIGHt no IT WILL its IT MIGHT which means none of us know for sure and theo nly sure way of finding out is playtesting it.

and again i make my heroes offensive always have and i always will you dont thats why our designs differ.

i picked one figth with you and thast cause u stoopedso low as to almost instaneously attack my character before i even began to attack yours other then that i have picked no fights simply defended my skills as you have suggested other ones (the whole point of this exchange)

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