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[Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan I_vote_lcap63%[Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan I_vote_rcap 63% [ 5 ]
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[Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan

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[Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan Empty [Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan

Post by Glycine on Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:41 am

Always wanted to make a hero with a flamer. :] Without further ado... I'm going to make him anti-dps, because we lack a tank with that capability.
Vulkan He'stan

Stats:
Str: 24 + 3.0
Agi: 17 + 0.2
Int: 20 + 2.9


Innate: For Humanity's Sake [passive]
All Salamanders, unlike other chapters, are known to be reliable and trustworthy allies in all situations, undertaking the most important and unglorious tasks for the benefit of others. Only they fight for the people of the Imperium, and troops around them recognize this, becoming as implacable as their Salamander allies. Vulkan He'stan is no different.
All allies around Vulkan He'stan in 350/500/650/800/950/1100 range gain 0.25/0.5/0.75/1.0/1.5/2.0% damage reduction and 0.1/0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1.0 regen for every 20/18/16/14/12/10 strength he has.

Skill 1: Kesare's Mantle (Passive)
Kesare's Mantle was one of the five artifacts of Vulkan recovered by Vulkan He'stan. Made from the extremely durable skin of a firedrake, it offers a level of protection unmatched by almost all man-made armor. He now wears it into battle, which enables him to charge into the fires of war unharmed.

Kesare's Mantle can be activated to make him invulnerable to all physical damage for 2/4/6/8 seconds. Magical damage and spells will still affect him.

Skill 2: Twin Headed Dragon: Is a toggle spell that switches him between spear and flamethrower, each with their own side effects.

Skill 2a: The Spear of Vulkan
Another artifact of Vulkan, this spear is said to burn with such intensity that it can set ceramite ablaze with a strike. As it is an artifact of the Salamanders, it goes without question that it too has been master-crafted, making it one of the deadliest weapons in the universe. It even grants additional sight during night, such is its empowering glow.

Vulkan Hest'an retains full vision, even during night. Enemies struck by Vulkan He'stan will gain a burn marker for every time they are hit, with a maximum of 2/3/4/5 on any one target. Individual burn markers will only last for 30 seconds total, but another burn marker added during that time will refresh the duration and increase the stack. Burn markers cause attackers to do 2/4/6/8% of the damage per burn marker they do to themselves as pure damage. For each burn counter placed, 2% of mana is used.

Skill 2b: The Gauntlet of the Forge
With purifying flame, Salamanders seek to cleanse the galaxy of evil and mete out justice to those who deserve it. This artifact is a gauntlet-mounted heavy flamer found and used by Vulkan He'stan to incinerate those who come too close. Between the two headed dragon of spear and flame, none withstand his wrath.

Active toggle spell. At any point, Vulkan can switch over from attacking with his spear to unleashing molten fury onto foes. In this case, Vulkan's mana will represent how much fuel is left to use for the flamer before he automatically reverts back to the spear while the flamer recharges. Vulkan now uses a flamethrower with a range of 400. Flames hit all targets around the designated target in an aoe of 100/150/200/250. Vulkan’s Damage is reduced by 95% while active. For each attack, Vulkan uses up 10/20/30/40 mana.

Skill 3: Unto the Anvil of War
In these dark ages, none stand so brightly than the Space Marines, especially the Salamanders. With their preferences for short-ranged weaponry, especially flamers, meltas, and thunder hammers, all Salamanders are trained never to back away in the face of darkness. Vulkan He'stan also possesses this quality and will move without fear or hesitation towards his targets.

Passive Skill: Vulkan has a 25/50/75/100% chance upon being attacked to dispel debuffs that reduce his movement and attack speeds as well as be immune to skills that change his initial position.

Ult: Tome of Fire
The text, written by Vulkan himself, details the locations of nine artifacts through shadowy wording and mysterious clues. As such, it's nigh impossible for a normal person to decipher even the location of one object, yet 5 such objects have been recovered by the Salamanders. Vulkan He'stan's sole purpose in life is to seek the remaining four objects. Fully supported by the Salamanders, he wanders across world to world, looking for clues, and he believes that on this battlefield, there just might be one.

Level 1: Obsidian Chariot

Nocturne's Hammer is widely known as the oldest Rhino still in service in the 41th century. What isn't know, however, is that it had a cousin, code named the "Obsidian Chariot". Instead of being studded with weaponry, it served as a stealth vehicle which purpose was to enable quick, exact strikes without warning. It also made easier the task of bringing heavy close-range weaponry into battle, which is another reason why it was so valuable.

Cost: 2150 g, 3 honor. Can only be bought at a hidden shrine, revealed at level 6.

Stats:
1000 Health
3 Fortified armor
390 movement speed
Passive Invisibility
2 Honor Requirement

Level 2: The Unbound Flame

During the time after the Dropsite massacre, Vulkan realized that he must magnify the impact of his limited chapter to fight the traitor legions. To this end, he created the technological device known as the Unbound Flame. Roughly speaking, it was a highly biological piece of machinery of which very few were made, because Salamander lizards were the only source of the parts.

Carried by the leader of a Space Marine squad, the Unbound Flame constantly releases a cloud of complex chemicals into the air around him and invigorate his comrades to fight harder and feel less pain. It also had a particularly devastating side effect in that when the bearer of the Flame was struck down in battle, it would cause his body to explode violently and leave a flaming wasteland for several meters around his body.

Cost: 4500 gold, 6 honor
Stats:
15 Strength
10 Intelligence
Passive: 10% MS, 30% AS, 4 Armor Aura
Active: Causes the unit to explode upon death and deal 30/40/50% of his maximum health in 200/250/300 AoE.





[Before I write out the specifics of this skill, here's the intent. There are 4 such artifacts to be found. No one has a definitive grasp on what these artifacts do, leaving their true purpose to be interpreted. Every time a game is initialized, 3 or 4 out of the 4 artifacts will be hidden across the map. When Vulkan learns his ult at level 6, a ping will appear in the general direction of the minimap along with a clue related to the item in the tooltip of the ult. The clue will denote what and how many of certain items are needed to create the artifact and if all prerequisites are met, if Vulkan walks over the spot with all necessary items, either the artifact will be created as an item or as an object that Vulkan can control.]


Last edited by Glycine on Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:28 pm; edited 18 times in total
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[Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan Empty Re: [Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan

Post by Fromundaman on Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:37 am

It's not that I don't like this hero, but HOLY SHIT he is OPed.

I mean, let me get this straight... at max level he gets a 56% damage reduction from all attacks that increases by 20% per hit? If attacked by a melee hero, they lose 40% IAS too?

What's that, he can give you up to 32 [base stat] +16 armor/regen or IAS/MS or mana regen (Hello mana-shield! With a spirit stone that's 64 mana per sec, not counting built in mana regen from the undoubtedly high int stat.) as well? Hell, that's better than any item.


Funny thing is, all of these skills could be ults, but none are Razz

Also, that innate isn't passive, is it?



Basically, I suggest reworking numbers to make them match the concept or vice versa.


Last edited by Fromundaman on Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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[Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan Empty Re: [Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:12 am

that and he still needs an ult Razz
and twin headed dragon costs mana whenever u attack. which is bad for a passive skill

bu definatly tone down the numbers

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[Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan Empty Re: [Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan

Post by Glycine on Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:18 pm

It's much easier to make an OP hero and tone down skills than to get skills right the first time. ^^;

I'll edit numbers now, so check it out.

As for twin-headed dragon, he has only one other major skill that costs mana, besides his potential Ult, so I feel it's not bad at all if your only cost of mana comes from attacking.

Also, his agility gain has been nerfed to hell, so I don't expect him to decimate things quickly >>
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[Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan Empty Re: [Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan

Post by Fromundaman on Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:36 pm

After seeing the number edit, I still have several fundamental complaints:

-You make it sound like the innate is a passive. If it is, it is WAY too good, at any number, for a passive. It is essentially a passive focus fire with AoE damage resistance.

-Mantle is pretty much the same thing as what Lucius' Lash was, only with more effects (and smaller numbers now.).

-Your "anti-DPS" hero would actually BE the best DPS hero. Every 2 attacks he gets 375 AoE DoT damage AND a IAS debuff, so long as he has 2% mana? Shit, 1 spirit stone or designs and that's covered. Nerfing his AGI won't change what he'll do with a combat drugs or two.

-Master Artisan: You lose one upgrade per death. Max of 16 (or 32 for INT) primary stat and effects. To give you an idea, here is what Big Mek, who's buff is an ult is:

At max level, it gives 60 damage, 15 armor, and 45 MS, and breaks down over time.
Yours is permanent, and gives (I'm going to mix all the stats just to order every possible effect) 16 damage, I believe 16% IAS on top of whatever IAS bonus AGI gives you, 320 max HP, 8 regen, 16 armor, and/or 16 mana per second (on top of what the Int bonus gives).
This skill, so long as it stays permanent, is fundamentally flawed, though if you put a timer on it, either the skill becomes a little lack-luster (timer is short-ish) or still great (long-ish timer).


To review, your hero is as follows:

2 damage reductions. One gives armor/regen as well.
An awesome passive burst damage skill.
An awesome farming skill (Flamethrower will mow through creeps and rake up cash like crazy.)
An insane 'until death' buff that either helps survival, casting/mana-shield, or ganking.

Now, let's just imagine this a minute. Suppose you start the game leveling the buff completely (and stacking it on yourself), get 1 levels in the flamethrower, and level the lash (for this exercise I'll assume it be level 2). This should give you, at level 7, +16 Str, at least 18 armor and 8.2 regen, an AoE 3% damage reduction, and a skill that effectively allows you to get gold for pretty much every creep killed each wave.


I guess I shouldn't have added that last line to my last post, because the concept here seems like it simply can't be balanced as is. The numbers nerf was a good start, but some of the skills may need tweaking. A good place to start would be making the buffs initially stronger, lower the max, and give each upgrade a timer.
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[Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan Empty Re: [Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan

Post by Glycine on Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:34 pm

I suppose I'll go through paragraph by paragraph and address your concerns.

1. So 16% damage reduction is imbalanced? How about 20% evasion? Or the blind factor of the shrouding? Or the 15% damage aura given from the Company Standard? On average per hit, assuming an creep hits a creep and that creep has 20-25 damage, it'll reduce the damage done by a grand 2. If an hero hits a creep for 170 damage, it'll reduce it by 27 damage. I fail to see how it's amazingly overpowered. As for the focus fire, I can attach a moderate level cooldown to it and have it cost a fair amount of mana.

2. As for Mantle, it's hard to represent something that gives a +2 invulnerable save because that's really good in TT (Or so I hear). So I tried to illustrate this by having weapons slowly wear down as they hit the target. Perhaps it could be limited to melee range, but I feel that it's fine as is.

3. It would perhaps be best if the DPS on both skills was non-stacking, so that any other trigger of the DoT would simply reset the duration of the skill. And despite the combat drugs, it's very, very easy to make him not a DPS hero. By a simple reduction of his movement speed, he's not going to outchase anyone anytime soon. That's one fundamental thing that prevents him from being a DPS.

4. Master Artisan will only give str. buffs to those characters who are str. based. Therefore a hero can only have one of the three series. Shall we consider Mad Dok, whose innate can raise your stats by 14 (And also lower, but the reward is there). It also has a cooldown of eleven seconds. >> It also loses the buff until death.

In any case, +16 Str/Agi or +16(Changed it) Int buff isn't going to be a game changer. It was also my original intent to prevent him from casting it on himself, so he could not buff himself all the time. The fact the buffs are weak is *so* that they can be permanent. A moderate cooldown again should prevent it from getting too strong.

5. I designed flamethrower such that it would do considerably less damage than his normal attack while having a really short cooldown (0.75). Let's see how op he is at level 7, using the skills as denoted above.

Level 4 buff, level 1 Flame, level 1 Mantle, level 1 ult.
42 base strength + 6 from items = 52 str. without skills.
Let's assume he can use Artisan on himself, in which case it will add 2-4 strength, 2-4 armor, and 1-2 regen, depending on how far the game is along. Let's assume best case scenario. Mantle will then add 1 armor and 0.16 regen.

56 str, 5 armor, 2.16 regen, 3% damage reduction. That gives him around 80 damage. With an 80% damage reduction due to use of the Gauntlet at level 1, he does 16 damage per flame attack. Having attacked 4 times in 3 seconds, that's 21 DPS. If we assume the DoT from flames does about 4 damage before its reset, that's a total of 25 damage per second in an area of 100. Additionally, after 3 seconds of firing, he's lost 4% of his mana. I don't believe 25 damage per attack, even with a dot that does 12 damage total is what you make it out to be. It's not even as good as Asurman's Shurikens.

Not very imbalanced at this point. Let's jump to level 25!

Level 25:
Base Str: 116
Again assumption that Artisan is self-castable: 16 str, 16 armor, 8 regen.
132 str + 35 strength from items = 167 Str.
From mantle he then gains 12 armor and 1.9 regen and innate gives 16% damage reduction.

Thus, he has 167 str, 28 armor, 10 regen, and 16% damage reduction. That gives him a total damage of around 230 damage a hit. Let's assume he's flaming a mob, so he'll do 69 damage and have a DPS of 92. DoT damage is non-consequential in this situation, as each hit resets the stack. Additionally, if he attacks for 3 seconds straight, he'll use up 16% of his mana. Now it's somewhat powerful, but at what cost?

Even if I decrease the reduction at level 4 to 50%, he does 115 damage per hit and a dps of 153.33 at a high mana cost.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:30 pm

heh, k... so.. my suggetions:

lower str and int gain, buff agi gain a little, and lower starting agi
the rest seems ok, im not in a very creative mood atm, so i cant see how he would play out...
and its not possible to determin main stat Razz (as fasr as i know anyway)
its possible to determin *highest* but not main

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[Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan Empty Re: [Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan

Post by Glycine on Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:10 pm

Ah. Well, in that case we can go by another factor. We can have it either assign by highest stat at the moment, in which case a separate buff would be converted to another or by random.

Do I really have to buff the agi? xD I mean, he gets armor from his cloak and I want to keep int. as high as possible to deal with mana costs he's going to incur.

Also, how much damage reduction is bad? I noticed that Fuegan's innate, with a str. of 100 can reduce all damage below 200 about 30% or so, so should I round up to an even 20? Because I can implement increasing damage reduction with decreasing attack speed, if everyone's so scared about him being DPS. Or perhaps since he's a salamander, he has an automatic IAS nerf.

PS: Heh, that's ok. Although I worry about nerfing my characters too much in response to comments.
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[Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan Empty Re: [Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan

Post by Fromundaman on Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:49 am

While you do make some good points, I think you misunderstood the intent of some of my concerns. For simplicity's sake, I'll quote your section then answer with my own.

Glycine wrote:I suppose I'll go through paragraph by paragraph and address your concerns.

1. So 16% damage reduction is imbalanced? How about 20% evasion? Or the blind factor of the shrouding? Or the 15% damage aura given from the Company Standard? On average per hit, assuming an creep hits a creep and that creep has 20-25 damage, it'll reduce the damage done by a grand 2. If an hero hits a creep for 170 damage, it'll reduce it by 27 damage. I fail to see how it's amazingly overpowered. As for the focus fire, I can attach a moderate level cooldown to it and have it cost a fair amount of mana.

Fair enough. However, it was more this in conjunction with his other skills that, it seemed, could make him live very long. That being said, my main problem was that it was essentially an AoE damage resist AND a focus fire, both of which are strong skills on their own (mostly the second). Also, I dislike the idea of taking a skill that's already used and just adding an extra effect in general (Though I'm pretty sure I too have done this at least once), since it feels to me like it just makes me wonder why the original character got ripped off then.

Also, I just want to throw out there that I do dislike the Shrouding too (Psycher's AoE version), and tried to get it changed.

Seems like it could work with a cooldown on the focus fire. I personally would prefer it as an active skill though (in which case the damage resist could in fact be buffed and the cooldown on focus fire not bothered with, since the skill itself already has a cooldown.)

Glycine wrote:2. As for Mantle, it's hard to represent something that gives a +2 invulnerable save because that's really good in TT (Or so I hear). So I tried to illustrate this by having weapons slowly wear down as they hit the target. Perhaps it could be limited to melee range, but I feel that it's fine as is.

I understand your point, but once again, we're just recycling an old skill and adding effects, which, along with the fact that the skill in question is one of the ones we agreed before helped make Lucius so unbalanced (Granted, mixed with the armor, but we also have a damage resist skill on this guy too), is what I don't like about it.

Glycine wrote:3. It would perhaps be best if the DPS on both skills was non-stacking, so that any other trigger of the DoT would simply reset the duration of the skill. And despite the combat drugs, it's very, very easy to make him not a DPS hero. By a simple reduction of his movement speed, he's not going to outchase anyone anytime soon. That's one fundamental thing that prevents him from being a DPS.

Didn't Fuegan just receive a MS nerf?
Also, with the fact that there is a no cooldown blink item in the game (that no one seems to get because it costs 10% current HP), a MS boost would not stop him from DPSing if anyone cared to get that item, or even the normal blink one. Hell, even get the hammer (That's the item that slows, right?) or Raven's claws and you don't have a big problem with that either.

Glycine wrote:4. Master Artisan will only give str. buffs to those characters who are str. based. Therefore a hero can only have one of the three series. Shall we consider Mad Dok, whose innate can raise your stats by 14 (And also lower, but the reward is there). It also has a cooldown of eleven seconds. >> It also loses the buff until death.

In any case, +16 Str/Agi or +16(Changed it) Int buff isn't going to be a game changer. It was also my original intent to prevent him from casting it on himself, so he could not buff himself all the time. The fact the buffs are weak is *so* that they can be permanent. A moderate cooldown again should prevent it from getting too strong.

Ah... him not being able to buff himself does make it better. However, about Mad Dok's innate... you don't choose what you get AND it takes 10 skill points to get to that point (with a min level of I think 15-17 to get max level innate. Can't remember exactly which.). This requires 4, which you can get at any time, and have bigger bonuses. On top of that, with what Grass said about not being able to detect the main stat, you can effectively manipulate which bonus you get too.

That being said, I think Mad Dok's buff is too high for a 'till death' effect too, especially if it stacks (not sure if it does. Haven't played him in a version where his innate wasn't bugged and only did regen.).

Glycine wrote:5. I designed flamethrower such that it would do considerably less damage than his normal attack while having a really short cooldown (0.75).

You missed the point. You don't get gold for getting the most damage in, you get it for getting the last hit. This is why Runtherder can rack up gold so fast, as can Celestine, Asurmen, etc. AoE DoT skills (and mass summons) are great for this, and with a high IAS on a double DoT AoE attack, he will rack up gold pretty fast. You honestly don't need to level the Flamethrower for the Flamethrower. You level it for the Spear later on in the game, when you bought DPS items with all the easy cash you made.

Glycine wrote:Let's see how op he is at level 7, using the skills as denoted above.

Level 4 buff, level 1 Flame, level 1 Mantle, level 1 ult.
42 base strength + 6 from items = 52 str. without skills.
Let's assume he can use Artisan on himself, in which case it will add 2-4 strength, 2-4 armor, and 1-2 regen, depending on how far the game is along. Let's assume best case scenario. Mantle will then add 1 armor and 0.16 regen.

56 str, 5 armor, 2.16 regen, 3% damage reduction. That gives him around 80 damage. With an 80% damage reduction due to use of the Gauntlet at level 1, he does 16 damage per flame attack. Having attacked 4 times in 3 seconds, that's 21 DPS. If we assume the DoT from flames does about 4 damage before its reset, that's a total of 25 damage per second in an area of 100. Additionally, after 3 seconds of firing, he's lost 4% of his mana. I don't believe 25 damage per attack, even with a dot that does 12 damage total is what you make it out to be. It's not even as good as Asurman's Shurikens.

Not very imbalanced at this point. Let's jump to level 25!

Level 25:
Base Str: 116
Again assumption that Artisan is self-castable: 16 str, 16 armor, 8 regen.
132 str + 35 strength from items = 167 Str.
From mantle he then gains 12 armor and 1.9 regen and innate gives 16% damage reduction.

Thus, he has 167 str, 28 armor, 10 regen, and 16% damage reduction. That gives him a total damage of around 230 damage a hit. Let's assume he's flaming a mob, so he'll do 69 damage and have a DPS of 92. DoT damage is non-consequential in this situation, as each hit resets the stack. Additionally, if he attacks for 3 seconds straight, he'll use up 16% of his mana. Now it's somewhat powerful, but at what cost?

Even if I decrease the reduction at level 4 to 50%, he does 115 damage per hit and a dps of 153.33 at a high mana cost.

Comparing a skill to a imba one (Shurikens) isn't a good plan Razz I mean, yeah, it's not as bad, but that doesn't mean much. However, I mentioned above the problem with the Flamethrower IMO, and it's not the DPS. Also, I know I don't get my ult at level 7 on some characters, so I can't really say before knowing exactly what it does. So far, while I really like your ult suggestions, it seems like the kind of ult I'd hold off on for a few levels, but I can't say for sure.

As for level 25... 35 STR, okay, I'm not sure how many items that makes with half stats, but I'll bet you they don't do JUST +STR. 28 armor and 10 regen by themselves are insane. I mean no hero gets 28 armor, even with items. Now let's add some actual items:

First off, let's assume he has Termi armor. That's an extra 5 armor (Did armor get halved too?). 13 STR

Then, due to the fact he already regens 10HP/sec, I'd get a Bionics or two. Let's go with two. That's 5 (or 10 if it didn't get halved. I can't remember what did and didn't.) extra HP per sec. Notice how it takes 2 items to get to HALF the regen your buff+mantle gives (assuming it is halved.) and 6 STR.

Now, let's take a Thunder hammer... That's +13 STR (are the numbers in the dev thread post-item nerf numbers? If so, then double what I use.), 8 damage, and a slow. (With an active slow on top of it.)

Of course, next we have combat drugs, so 8 AGI and 55% IAS.

Finally, assuming we want a movement item, we have either wings, or a blink item, depending on preference and the hero's MS.

Added up, this particular build gets 164 STR, 15 HP regen, 33 armor, and a 16% damage passive reduction, as well as an 8%/hit reduction. Now we also have an insane IAS item (which if it gets nerfed by the way, I want to note that I asked for that too like 3-5 versions ago.), which compliments the slow from the hammer and the Spear (which is what I had a problem with for late game, since every other attack adds 100 damage straight up and 200 over 5 sec, as well as an IAS debuff).

That build will wreck anything in the game at this time. You won't be able to hurt him faster than he can regen, but oh damn can he hurt you. Sure, I sacrifice mana regen, but you know... he can't die, so it won't matter. Hell, you may not even need 2 Bionocs. You can probably just have 1 and a Spirit Stone instead.






Also, I really like that ult idea, but I'm not sure how it will work.

However, here's something I didn't think of... what happens if he runs out of mana? Does he no longer attack? Does he just go back to a normal attack? When he does get enough mana to attack again, does he? If so, is the only way to regain it to stay out of combat range?
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[Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan Empty Re: [Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan

Post by Glycine on Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:33 am

I'll start from the top again. xD

1. I actually want to create a tank that has armor and can support the team. >> Carnifex isn't a tank because he has no armor and hardly gains any. He has lots of regen, but he can't take sustained damage over a period of time.

As for the active portion, I very much dislike having damage reduction be an active skill. It's like Kharn's Blessing in that it strips him of mana which he'll need (and you'll see why he needs it). I would prefer the focus fire go off on a a cooldown of 20-30 seconds and last for about 2-5 seconds.

2. Hm, then. Don't want to mess with more damage reduction or evasion. How about this, then? If the damage reduction from the innate were moved to Mantle, which makes sense, and the attack damage would disappear, that would be nice. I'd then have to buff the innate, which can be done. I also need to add something about feedback resistance so that he can't be destroyed that way.

3. He cannot be a DPS hero because his attacks require mana. If he is out of mana, he loses the ability to use either the Spear or the Flame and his damage is approximately cut in half. That is the limiting factor I place on him. He sure as hell won't die, but he's not going to kill anyone anytime soon unless he ganks you with full mana. Plus the Spear and Flame will act as orb effects to limit him from getting lifesteal or any other orb effect.

4. Mad Dok's cooldown at max level is 11 seconds. Artisan's is 45. So while Mad Dok is high-risk, high-reward, Artisan aims to build up the team slowly.

5. Flamethrower hits enemies with a NON-STACKING DoT. You just can't stand here and shower them with stacking dots. It's not like Asurmen, who's the only other hero with a comparable skill. You're doing a DoT of a murderous 5 damage a sec for 3 seconds at level 1. That's not going to earn you last kill no matter what you do unless you shower them with flames and then you're just resetting your dot.

As for spear, lets assume he has ~115 intelligence and level 4 spear. That's around 2500 mana total. For each attack, he'll use 100 mana so to inflict the 100 base + 250 NON-stacking DoT, he'll use 200 mana. Assuming someone lets him wail on him for a long time, he'll attack around 30 times with mana regen. That means he does 100 base * 15 = 1500 damage. Let's give him an attack cooldown of 1.5 second so that the dot has 3 seconds to take effect. Thus, add 120 damage * 14 + 200 for the last attack = 1370 damage. In this way, he does 3380 damage total over 45 seconds. What's the DPS on that? 75.1. Quite above average, for an ability that takes 200 mana per instance to activate.

However, what's the likelihood of this situation ever happening? What hero will let him wail on him for 45 seconds? I gave him high damage that did NOT reduce movement speed so that people could actually regroup and run away, unlike other DoTs which strip you of movement speed. Cough, Snikrot.

Here's the whole point of what I'm trying to say in two points.

1. He's a tank. I would prefer he remain a tank who can support the team instead of a watered-down hero who tries to do too many things at the same time. Flame and Spear override all orb effects as well.

2. Each time he attacks, he uses up mana. Without mana, he can't do effective damage. Making him attack faster makes him become more useless faster. He is designed to be a hero that picks and chooses when to attack, instead of just sitting behind the creeps and auto-attacking. It also makes him more unlikely to choose a DPS path, unless the player has the skills to micromanage and gamble with how much damage he can do before his mana runs out, not to mention his health.



PS: Thunder hammer and sword of secrets/raven's talons can't stack anyway. they're all two handed weapons. And there's a bug out there right now in which one can have two one handed weapons and 1 two handed weapons. I also can have two two handed weapons. I can also have two Thunder Hammers. >> Go look at your triggers, Grass. xD

Also, you forgot to nerf Hydraulic suit. It needs to have 8 strength, 8 agility, instead of 15 str, 10 agi. Tyrant's claw needs a respective nerf as well. (Its parts give 15% ias, 15 damage, 7 str, 5 agi, and 2 int while the whole thing gives 15 damage, 15 str, 15 agi, & 30% ias while being much cheaper than a Sword of Secrets. The Daze on Thunder Hammer might need to be nerfed as well as well as the stats on it. I mean a 2.5x increase in strength just by adding master crafting and storm shield?


If I were to design a build for Vulkan as is, here is what it would be, with modified stats:

Staff of Tzeentch: 2.3 mana regen aura, heal, 15 int, 5 agi, 5 str, 8 damage.
Thunder Hammer: 10 damage, 20 strength, daze, burst.
Sacred Standard: 15 str, 10 int, 10 agi, 25% dmg aura, 20% ias, 6% ims.
Hydraulic Suit: 3 armor, 5 regen, 8 str, 8 agi.
Swooping Hawk: 60 ms, leap.
Reductor Field: 2 armor, 250 hp.

That's a total of 48 strength, 25 int, and 23 agi, with 5 armor, 5 regen, and 18 damage.

So with Vulkan's base stats plus 20 from attribute bonus, then the :
Str: 96->116->164
Agi: 22->42->65
Intelligence: 90->110->135

Mantle then adds 12 armor and 2 regen, as above, so he has 65/10 + 12 + 5 = 24 armor and 7 regen.
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[Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan Empty Re: [Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:26 pm

right now, he isnt an anti-dps hero, hes a tank Razz the only thing making him anti dps is his innate, and *possibly* his buff. all the rest just make him more resistant to attacks, not his team, and he has no way to make enemies attack him, or even be a real threat by himself (aside from his orb(s))

steadfast loyalty should stay as it is, because if u want to keep him as an anti dps hero, he needs to affect others, not just himself.
the mantle, remove the attack damage reducing thing, keep the armor and regen with str (and i agree now, thinking about it, keep his agi gain low so he doesnt gain bearly any armor naturally), and replace the attack damage reduction with something else.

for the orb effects:

it will be very difficult to make them both orb effects... unless envenomed spears works in a spellbook... ill look into that when he gets in...
at the moment, to toggle between two different skills, he either needs: a chat command, an active skill, or a toggle skill. for a chat command, the skills can be passive orb effects. for an active skill and the toggle skill, i cant make the skills themselves the actual skills with effects, i would have to do the effects seperatly, with triggers, and it might not end up being what u want.
thinking about it, envenomed spears could prolly work in a spellbook, so the spear can be an orb effect.
for the flamethrower... this is alot harder... right off the top of my head, i can think of several ways to make it work, but not how u want it.
1: his has a splash missle, which would make units around the target take damage, but it wouldnt show them getting flamed, they would just take damage, and i prolly couldnt do the damage over time.
2: he has a multishot skill, which makes him attack several targets, but again, i can only make the main target take the damage over time
3: he has attack type bounce, which would look cool and do the aoe damage, and make it look like their actually getting attacked, but it would disable all orb effects on him, cept lifesteal, and his attack would break if smoeone got him an orb effect.
now, with triggers, it *might* be possible to make units that he damages while in ranged mode take the dot.

i can try mixing envenomed spears with splash damage, because i know a slow orb splahes the slow, but im not sure a dot orb would splash the dot... ill look into it...
(i dont know if taht actually accomplished anything Razz)

master of the forge: keep it how it is now, just say highest base stat instead of main stat, because i can detect a heroes stats before bonuses. and mroe often then not, a heroes highest base stat wil be his main.
but change the bonuses, because giving a str hero more str and regen seems redundent... (str alerady gives regen itself). the armor is good, but something else related to str might work.
agi giving ms is good, but dont give +agi and +ias, because hes giving agi (which gives ias) and then more ias on top of it. maby give them damage and ms? or evasion?
intelligence is tricky, because i cant think of anything that helps int outside of mana regen or mana... oh, maby give them mana instead of mana regen?
or give armor, or damage reduction, or life, or... something other then +int and regen.

ult idea: sounds good, but would be *Very* tricky, because giving him 'quests' would detract from the main actual objective of the game Razz unless his artifacts are global buffs, then its ok. or summons, or something that isnt just an item for him

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[Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan Empty Re: [Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan

Post by Fromundaman on Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:29 pm

1) Right now he has TOO much armor though (and for Carni, ehhh... yes and no, just depends on how long the game goes, but I think Typhus would be a better example.), assuming his buff can affect him (making it not self-targettable could fix this and his huge regen issue.)

2) That works. Would it still be AoE though? That wouldn't make much sense, though as Grass said, I guess it *should* be that way if you want it to be an anti-DPS rather than a tank (though I personally find those skills to be bad for balance.).

3) Ahhh... his attacks being orb effects does in fact balance it a lot more. He'd be devastating with a stunner, but hey, so are a lot of characters. You want to mention that in the info though, because I would hate to buy an expensive item like Sword of Secrets or the hammer only to realize I don't get the orb effect.
That being said, does that mean the orb effects from items come into effect when he runs out of mana? (In which case the Mind Sap item is a GREAT one for him)

@Grass: In EoTA there's a hero who's whole skillset changes (between 5-6 different skillsets) every time he casts a spell. Would it be possible to use that mechanic, but only for that one skill? Basically, could it be a passive with a no-CD, no mana-cost active component that, when used, would change his attack to the other one and change the skill so as to essentially have two different orb effect skills, instead of trying to adapt one skill to work for both (Which I think is what you were trying to do if I understood correctly.).

4) That's true, but the bonuses of that scale are available to Dok after twice as many skill upgrades.
That being said, the CD was never mentioned, so I never took it into account since I didn't know what it was. With a 45 sec CD though, he could have a single character with max buffs every 5 minutes. How bad that is depends really on who gets buffed. People who die twice in a game benefit more than feeders, obviously, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that if you have 2 competent players on your team, they will be pretty much perma-buffed the whole game due to rather low deaths (And the fact it takes 5 deaths to reset the buff completely.).

5) Maybe I'm just having trouble picturing how it plays out. It doesn't sound bad though the way you're explaining it (And the fact that I hadn't seen the "Non-stacking" part. Oops.).

For the spear, while I get your point, your math is off (Oh, and who has a 1.5 sec CD, as a point of reference? It feels long to me, but I could be mistaken.), since with a 1.5 second attack CD, as you said, there are 3 seconds between hits for the DoT to take effect before it is refreshed, hence you do 5/3*200*13+200 to get the DoT during that time (1760), and you have 1400 burst damage from initial combustion. Add that to the base 1500 from his normal attack. Your grand total is 4660, which is done over 22.5 seconds, not 45 (You did every 3*15, but the 3 seconds is when the skill goes off, which is every two attacks.). Our DPS comes to 207.1, which is much higher.



I realize what you aim for him to be, but before he looked like an old Typhus style tank who would plow through everything, while having one of the best buffs in the game and not even having an ult yet. The problem with him becoming a hero who does too much at once is that his skills right now seem to give him something of everything. Right now he has damage resistance, a buff, a DPS skill, an unknown ult, a focus fire, and a dependence on mana to attack while being a STR based hero. I mean, he sounds neat, but his skills are all over the place, and as such, he'll probably end up a 'Jack of all trades, master of none' hero.

Was that PS aimed at me? I only had one weapon. I said either one could be a good plan for the slow, but didn't realize that your skill was an orb effect, so really only the hammer can slow due to the active part.

Your build is good, BUT (there's always a but), that's a build that makes him how you want him to be played, and more balance. My build sacrificed some things (and would need to be changed with the new knowledge I have on him), and would need to be changed, but my point is that he can be made pretty much unkillable, which will make him rape lanes and end games that way.


Also, if I do want to use an orb effect weapon (say Sword of Secrets to stay alive even longer), can I turn off the skill, or do I have to not get it at all?

@Grass: About Master of the Forge, would it be possible to give +spell damage to damaging spells? EoTA does it, which is why I was wondering.
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[Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan Empty Re: [Incomplete]Vulkan He'stan

Post by Glycine on Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:18 pm

I'm going to have to change his build around completely. So I'm going to leave the above opening post as a reference, but make a new post with new skills. Too much writing to have to go through for the first post.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:38 pm

and im gona answer anyway XD

comment one:
what im saying, is that to make the spear skill active with a passive, it needs to *be* an active in the first place, and the passive is either covered by invisible dummy skills, or spellbooks or triggers etc. (there are no 'active' orb effect spells), so to actually make them orb effects, he would need to actually have the orb effect skill, because they have icons, and im pretty sure they dont work in spellbooks (orb of slow doesnt anyawy), so im saying its not possible to have the 'active' skill to switch them out, but them also being orb effects at the same time.

that being said, orb of slow *definatly* doesnt work in a spellbook, but envenomed spears might, ill have to try that Razz

little mechanics lesson here ^^
(oh, and if your wondering about spellbooks: they are abilities that can be clicked and have their own set of spells that they can hold, with passives working inside spellbooks, so its possible to give a spellbook with a passive skill to a unit, then disable the spellbook for that player, essentially making the passive skill that would otherwise need an icon invisible)

and its not possible (as far as i know) to detect the difference between spell and physical damage. check for me how eota does it, and get back to me Razz

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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:08 pm

sorry i couldnt answer this in the pm, cause my internet died as i was reading it D:
ok, looking over the new skills, i like the armor and innate and spear, but i dont like gauntlet as it is at the moment, and his ult is basically the meks ult but diff.
and that includes the gauntlet's buffs to the other skills Razz

i wanna see the spear/flamer switch, but not as it was done in that skill

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Post by Glycine on Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:23 pm

He's updated, but he might still be OP.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:40 pm

i like the new passive Very Happy but its *way* too powerful with the burn markers from the spear.
at level 4, heroes take (assuming max stack of spear because they are fighting for a while..) 120% damage return...
u can keep the dot/slow/ias slow... other effects... on the burn markers, but i would suggest against keeping both forms of damage reduction.
other than that good job Very Happy he looks pretty awesome, just give some details on the artifacts for the ult

(assuming the OP is the most up-to-date suggestion)

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Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:47 pm

so, i said the return damage is too much... and u pump it *way* up XD nice Razz

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Post by Glycine on Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:28 pm

Lol, it's not the return damage. He does 300% of his own base damage in one strike.

And it's far weaker than what the previous skill was.

Say we have a late-game karandras, who eats into your health like a glutton. In 6 seconds, he's probably destroyed 80% of Vulkan's health, which is equivalent to 3000 damage. Now 80% of that back is a one-hit kill on any agi/carry character. xD

However, if it's only 300%, it's like a 600 crit, which isn't that.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:25 pm

oh! wish i could read XD
and tbh, i liked the return damage version more

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Post by Glycine on Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:53 pm

I do too, but it's hard to make it useful without being op. Any suggestions?
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Post by Glycine on Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:47 am

bump.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:47 pm

hmm. im not sure anvil of war is actually possible...
i *could* debuff him of all slows whenever his ms drops below his base ms, but i cant make displacement skills not effect him.
well, i can make knockback skills not effect him... but thats as much as i can do.

and for the flamethrower, i cant make the range increase per level sorry XD keep it at around 400 ish

other than that, it looks good, and i assume u want me to move this to dev? Razz

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Post by Glycine on Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:53 pm

Can't you set him to an immovable object whenever a spell that would change his position would hit? Just curious.

Mhm, Dev would be nice.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:34 pm

nope. the thing is, can u think of other displacement skills that arent knockbacks? Razz i cant. so making him imune to knockbacks would work for the most part. there'll just be a few odd skills that would still work on him.

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