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[COMPLETE]pathfinder

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:40 pm

soooo, swap the tower and the innate, and add effects to the ult?

you didnt have to make a new thread for this [COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Icon_razz you coulda just posted in the current path thread
edit: i merged the threads

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by cellrawr on Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:35 pm

This is Gly's idea, just had me write it down. AND IT WAS LATE, EAT ME.

Pretty much it was move the tower to innate, and every level activated another skill. Seeker missles would be a spell on the tower itself, not his ult anymore. Darkstar Warhead would become his new ult. I don't know how gly wanted it to act. But I guess it would fire something at a location that does pulsing damage, just don't know if it uses the towers to fire like seeker missles do.

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Glycine on Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:09 pm

Updated.
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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:25 am

I don't think the pathfinder is a good idea for the double skillset thing. And definatly shouldn't be able to switch mid-battle.

I do agree that markerlight should be a regular skill cause having it as the innate limits its power too much.
And towers as the innate severely limits the effectiveness of the skill. They are designed to do so much more than just vision, and the rest of the skillset is too valuable to invest enough points into towers to get them to be useful.

I oropose that vanguard becomes the innate, markerlight and towers are regular skills, the towers matkerlights level independantly from the pathfinders, and we adapt the seeker middle/darkstar warhead idea to the current skillset.

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Glycine on Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:50 am

Did you just do a double take? xD

If towers are the innate, it forces you to use them as vision in the first few minutes. It also makes no sense for something to come out of the box fully made, with all upgrades save the Markerlight progression. It tempers the potential unbalance of seeker missiles early/mid game, where you can do up to 750/1200 damage with your ult if your team has pushed well and you have your towers in a battleground spot.

I do wait for your grab bag of logical reasons as to why a Pathfinder cannot put away a weapon and reach for the weapon on his back.

Vanguard is amazingly useless as an innate. As an innate, he needs lots of mana to cast the spells to keep the only buff it gives for a paltry 5 seconds. ._.
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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Kiba[dok] on Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:18 am

there a prob with the skill set hes useing both tau disciplines when no tau does this they focus on 1
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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:59 pm

Towers: I've already given my reason that you didn't adress. Also, enlighten me on how it doesn't make sense that he would get a fully functional tower right away.
Using your idea, you would have to spend double the skillpoints to get to the same spot as the current one.

Skillsets: I don't care about fluff, its bad practice to have two complete skillsets.

And how does vanguard as an inmate become worse than vanguard as a skill? How does it suddenly need more mana?

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Glycine on Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:57 pm

Towers. Are. OP. xD So many effects right out of the bag is absurd, for one. You can shut down any invisible hero early game simply by using your towers wisely, so that they can't chase you. You're going around my point: I WANT THEM TO BE NERFED! And if they function as the innate, the progression serves to limit Pathfinder's utility until late-game.

If pathfinder can get help from a pusher to take the first major outpost or the base outpost, and then plants his towers right there, it's literally impossible to go near that base without getting rockets up the ass. Ask Rathia or any of the heroes who played last night about my OP towers near our fortress and how they couldn't get near without almost dying or dying outright.

Skillsets: "I don't care about fluff. Two skillsets are bad practice."

Wait. Wait a second. I need to ready my caps lock key.

WHAT THE FUCK!? NECRON LORD, REALLY? His THIRTY-SIX different skillsets (Four skills, 3 choices each) are designed via FLUFF, yet you don't care about fluff for Pathfinder? Really, Grass, don't be a hypocrite. Either you can specify that you don't care about this fluff, or I can wait for your justification on how 2 skillsets is somehow worse than 36 skillsets.

Vanguard's stupid 5 second duration requires you to constantly use spells if you want the advantage of it. And even if you were to upgrade it to 10 seconds, it's a shitty innate because he doesn't gain the necessary attack damage to take advantage of the spell until late-game. And if you use it to run, then you gain a massive 5% move speed, because no realistic person would ever put points into the innate if they have the other three skills that Pathfinder does.

If he's out of mana, it doesn't help him. If he can't cast spells, it doesn't help him. The same can be said for Markerlight or the Towers, but at least those have a direct effect. However, I don't want to rule it out completely, so give me your justification for how Vanguard, moved to the innate, will help this character.

@Kiba

Mont'ka and Kauyon are two sides of the same coin. One commander can subtly use Kauyon to set up the next battle for Mont'ka to act in. So they can coexist together and flow fluidly.
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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:08 pm

skillsets: two skilslets that you can swap back and forth from during the battle. sorry i thought you woulda got that. that ones my bad for not specifying.
once the necron lord choses a skill, hes stuck with it for the rest of the game.


and vangaurd: you missed my point.

as a learnable skill now, vs as an innate, its virually the same. if its learnable, you dont suddenly need to use less mana. if its the innate, it doesnt suddenly become worse.
as an innate, you can freely spend points in other skills if you dont want to put the effort into vanguard. putting it as the innate frees up alot more skillpoints to put into (i dont think i even disagree with you on this one Razz) better skills.
if its in the innate, you can level markerlight and towers to their full potential alot earlier than if they were the innate (and they are really his main skills)


also: we can nerf towers if they are op right now, but putting them as the innate nearly makes them useless for anything more than scouting. (making them worse than the komando's squigs at level 1)

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Kiba[dok] on Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:38 pm

ok this maybe off topic but when does path get real tau name?
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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Glycine on Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:38 pm

Ah, there we go.

You might want to talk to Tirin about the absolute mauling I gave him with Pathfinder, though. Something about my innate was broken at times, where one markerlight shot would send 6 missiles, but even when that didn't proc, he couldn't cross the river after level 6 without getting 5 markerlights. This was in a one on one match, to be honest, but if you can't see the towers, Pathfinder can go set up his towers in mid and then go lane elsewhere, waiting for people to walk into it. And even when he got a gem, I still killed him easily.

As for the skillsets, the Pathfinder is a scout, first and foremost. When towers get their expected nerf, he'll need another way to do damage. Say invis. detection w/ range shuts the towers down completely. What does he do then, if he can't set up? Just let them push? The current build relies on the towers to get max numbers of markerlights. If someone has detection a la Eldrad and keeps using it, it's not too hard to destroy the towers. Or tanks can get gems and run around the map destroying your towers.

In fewer words, the towers both make him OP and useless at the same time. If you can't see the towers, you're screwed, and if you can see them, Pathfinder can't do anything besides autoattacking and laying down suppressive.

Grass, I know the towers are one of his main skills. I WANT TO LIMIT THE POTENTIAL OF IT. I want to nerf it so that it is not quite so dominant. How many times do I have to repeat myself on this? Five? Six?
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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:14 pm

Yes, I know they need nerfing. I recognized that.

You missed the last part of my post where I adressed that, kinda.
I said moving them to the inmate as they are now nerfs them way to much. I suggest you revisit that.

We then also need a way to limit the op of stacking towers in the same spot

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Glycine on Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:11 pm

You don't really know how much worse it makes the towers until you really try it, Grass. It's one of those skills which deserves playtesting to see how playable Pathfinder is.

At least try it before we push the "Yes, it's a nerf" button?
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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:17 pm

It removed everything but vision from them untill you level it Razz you need to invest double the points to get it to the same effectivness Razz its a bit too much.
And then when you get to innate level 5 its the same problem as now

Edit: I should clarify, in not against trying it, just don't think it would be worth the time.


Last edited by Grass Hopper on Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Glycine on Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:25 pm

One, vision kicks ass when you have rune control. Two, you can predict ganks with vision alone, and keep an eye on enemy movements otherwise. You can even counter-gank with the vision from a tower.

And you should have to invest more into it, because it's just that good. When you get the innate to level 5, at least all heroes have more health and more chances to survive the missiles. When the innate is level 5, that's 8 skill points, so assume the ult is gotten, full markerlight, and a level each of suppressing and vanguard, that's a minimum of level 15 to get missiles. Which is considerably better than level 7 to rape people's faces with missiles.

At least heroes have an average of 1700-1800 health at level 15. Heroes have like 850-900 at level 7, meaning that 6 level 1 missiles will do 187*6 = 1125, while 6 level 2 missiles will do 1462 with magic resistance. It is far better to avoid the instant kill at level 6 and 11 by making the innate correspondingly hard to get. Yes, it'll still do a lot of damage. But it takes a lot longer to get to, and the Pathfinder can be shut down in between and not even make it to that point.
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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:15 am

vision alone on towers makes them worse than komando's squigs.
if were thinking about what towers are supposed to do, dumming it down to just vision alone is too much.

to get any further use out of the towers (ie, to get them to do what they should be doing) you need to either forsake the rest of your skillset, or wait untill an absurdly late level.
and the argument of 'its just that good' is faulty because if it is 'that good' then tone it down. dont make it useless untill late game because its too powerful early.


also! what do you have in mind for a tower-only seeker missle.

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Glycine on Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:53 am

And all the other abilities the towers gain over time make them far, far better than the squigs in the long run. You're complaining about the first 10 minutes of the game, when the towers won't have anything but vision and markerlight, and I really can't see why.

I don't see where you're getting this uselessness factor from. Yes, you can't shoot missiles at things until level 5 of the innate. So? By getting a paltry four points into it, you not only have markerlight but also true sight. Some heroes's innates are actually deserving of points, like Lord of Change's horrors, because they amplify the ability and survivability of the hero.

Here's a scale build anyway, for your interest.

Level 1: Markerlight
2: Innate
3: Markerlight
4: Suppressing Fire
5: Markerlight
6: Darkstar
7: Markerlight
8: Vanguard
9: Innate (Markerlight)
10: Innate
11: Darkstar
12: Innate (Truesight)
13: Innate
14: Innate (Trueshot)
15: Innate
16: Darkstar
17: Innate (Seeker Missiles)
18: Suppressing
19: Suppressing
20: Suppressing
21: Innate
22: Innate (Valkyrie's Kiss)
23: Vanguard to finish.

If you build a Lord of Change with firestorm, bolt of change, and the innate, it turns out much the same way. Having towers as the innate is not bad at all, and until you try it, I won't really take your word for it, because this is something you can't predict.

The tower fires the seeker missile, not the Pathfinder. It's a skill that becomes activated.
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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by cellrawr on Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:58 am

What's wrong with having them all activated at the start, but just having them scale with the level of the innate like you kinda did. Make the seeker missiles weaker in the beginning, and better as you level the innate up. I personally wouldn't suggest to make them as strong as they currently are since he would be having Darkstar also. Making them as rape as they current are and having a new ult kinda seems overboard to me.

I like towers and Seeker Missles being the innate better since it goes away from his sheer dependency on them. If a farseer or a hero with a gem are fucking up your towers, as it is now you get locked out of your ult. With this change, even if they are fucking up your towers you still have damage output from his newer ult. Also since it would move away from his main damage source, you could actually have the option to use them more for scouting if you wanted to while still being able to use them for lane dominance. Surprised I also don't like having to reposition my main source of damage every time I push.

If I started repeating myself or rambling, eat me. It's early.

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:03 pm

gly: thats not what i meant by how do the missles work on the towers :Pp
does it work like the current ult, but on the towers instead?

also! if this is all about the opness of stacking markerlight with seeker missles, just nerf the tower's seeker misles.
the problem with the missles now is that they stack additivly for each markerlight stack on the target, giving them potentiall game breaking damage.
they just need to stack muliplicitavly (somehow >.>) or give diminishing returns for each markerlight stack. like each missle deals X% or -X damage of the last one on the same target


and cell:
if they mvoe to the innate, itll *increase* his dependancy on them if he focuses on them early game because you need to pour double the ammount of skill points into the skill to get them to be where they were before (utility wise), leaving the rest of your skills either underleveled, or leaving the pathfinder without a functioning skill (in terms of what its supposed to do) untill late game

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by cellrawr on Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:11 pm

cellrawr wrote:What's wrong with having them all activated at the start, but just having them scale with the level of the innate like you kinda did.

How would having them all activated from the start, just making them all scale up while leveled (instead of glys suggestion) increase his dependency since he would be getting stuff to fill in the regular/ult void. They would still have truesight, markerlight, etc from the getgo, just not as powerful they would be at max. His utility would still be there. Your example is someone who would still cling to how he plays now. My point is to give him stuff to make up for losing their effectiveness. That way he would still have his utility (marker, truesight, invisible towers, etc), good damage output (Darkstar plus a weakened seeker missles combo), and not getting fucked over hard due to the thing he is dependent on for his utility and damage output being able to be seen by the enemy (that also takes a while to set up, and is a bitch to re-setup against someone who knows how to handle it).

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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:21 pm

true, i completly didnt take that into account XD sorry, i had just woken up Razz

but explain to me how moving it to the innate causes him not to get fucked over by heroes with truesight?

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Post by cellrawr on Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:52 pm

Because he would have added stuff that would be taking the current skills place. Say his towers do get fucked over by truesight. He still would have access to Darkstar. With how he is now since he is so dependent on his towers, them getting fucked up make him lose the effectiveness of his ult (since one rocket from his personal markerlight does shit for damage. I'm not counting the 6 rockets from 1 markerlight that Gly had happening, cause that better you just be doing another typhus like fuckup). Also moving it to the innate I would assume you would lower is manacost, so he can rebuild a little easier when he can (also making it less of a pain to rebuild if you actually push).

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 2 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:55 pm

and if we keep towers as a learnable skill, but then keep the addition of the tower-casted seeker missle, and swap out path's current ult for darkstar?

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Post by cellrawr on Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:16 pm

Then the mana part.

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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:19 pm

how much does it cost atm?

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