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Current Version: v0.0.01A

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Total Votes : 8

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 3 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by cellrawr on Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:27 pm

100/140/180/220 mana. So to get 5 towers up, it costs 1100 mana, and the earlier skill levels its also a good chunk of mana for the hero levels you would get them at.

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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:45 pm

im also interested in keeping the darkstar warhead suggestion

only problem: it cant rely on markerlight, unless markerlight is the innate.
forced synergy is bad.

it could however target a unit, and do a markerlight effect on them, as well as the ult.
but it cant just be 'whoever the pathfinder is targeting with markerlight'

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 3 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Glycine on Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:54 pm

List of concepts I saw/questions to answer in Chronological order:

1. All skills start out and scale with the innate, according to cell's idea. Thus, Truesight, Trueshot, Markerlight, etc. at level 1, save Seeker Missile.

2. Marker Towers would have their own seeker missile skill, available at a certain level of the innate. You could markerlight something then fire a missile using the skills of that tower alone with no Pathfinder influence.

3. I *did* nerf the seeker missiles by lowering their damage and making them hard to get simultaneously. For some reason, you always think number fixes will do the trick, but answer me this. Seeker Missiles are supposed to be good, at least to the spirit of the idea, since they are Strength 8, AP 3 missiles, and it's considerably hard to make it do any damage below 200 at higher levels.

You play to concept, I play to fluff, and the fluff has to predominate in this case, or the skill is bankrupt in that people will look at it and see no correlation whatsoever with its equivalent. It's like making Cato summon Honor Guard with 200 or 1500 Health and 4 or 100 attack. It's what I abhor, to be frank, because that means we've been doing a bad job.

4. Missiles should not do a % based amount of damage, because that doesn't make any sense for one. It's like saying Orbital Bombardment should do 25% of heroes' health or any kind of explosive weapon manages to do 150 damage or 450 damage depending on the hero. Missiles don't work that way, for one.

5. Grass, you're stuck on what the towers are "supposed" to do, according to your mind. There's this strange little fact, however, that the towers do not disappear from his skillset and that they can still be used, somehow, for Vision and Markerlighting at low levels.

You're looking at the whole potential of the skill, but say it remains a normal skill. Your plans to reduce the damage, either via a flat amount or in percentage increments, lacks any basis for rational thought because there is no precedent for such an action and you kill the core idea of the skill to the extent that it's better left out.

Say they do 4/8/12% of hero's health each. At level 1, that's 40 damage. At level 2, that's 128 damage. At level 3, they do 264 damage each, assuming 1000/1600/2200 average health. So you've gone and made the missiles useless until late game, which achieves the same impact that my system did.

Say the first missile does 225/300/400 damage, but each missile does 15/10/5% less than the one before it. Assuming 6 missiles, that would be 225+191+162+138+
118+101 = 935 damage, which after 25% reduction, is ~700 damage. That's still almost a kill on early game heroes, so that didn't solve much.

Let's jump to 5% and level 3 of the ult. The progression turns into (With magic resistance already accounted for): 300+285+270+257+244+232 = 1588 damage, which is pretty much enough to score a kill on all caster type characters at full health (Average health: 1400), and a kill on Agility carries at 70-85% (Average health: 1800), while putting a huge dent in Strength Tanks equivalent to 50-60% of their health.

So that solves nothing, unless you want to up your percentages, but that makes the skill even more useless at low levels.

I'll even test the diminishing returns, percentage wise, by doubling the percents to 30/20/10%, so I can stop beating a dead horse.

Level 1: 225/157/110/77/54/37 (Really? What the hell? 37 damage from a missile? You can't be serious. Total of 492 damage after resistances, making it exceptionally weak for a skill that requires so much setup time to work.)

Level 2: 300/240/192/153/122/98 (If a missile ever does below 100 damage, that's breaking the threshold of believability. Pathfinder can do more than 100 damage with a single shot, yet a much stronger missile does less damage? You cannot break the idea to balance the skill.

Level 3: 400/360/324/291/262/235 = 1404 damage after spell reduction. Still one hits casters at level 16, does a massive amount to Agi carries and dents Str. Tanks a lot. No change, really.

Now here's the entirely of my suggestion.

Towers will be moved to the innate. 2/3/4/5/6/7 Towers available as the skill levels.

The Sensor Outposts will start out minimal, as the Pathfinder awaits more technology shipments and becomes more skilled in his manipulation of the tower.
As he becomes more skilled and the battle escalates around him, his hunter cadre will help him to upgrade his sensor and detection technology so that the Tau can take the territory easier for the Greater Good. (Note: This is my justification for this skill.)

At level 1, the Sensor Tower is bare save for a camera and a cloaking device that hides it from view.

At level 2, the Pathfinder gets an extra Markerlight and attaches it to the Sensor Outpost.

At level 3, the Pathfinder receives advanced detection capabilities, enabling it to scan the immediate area for cloaked units and reveal them.

At level 4, the Pathfinder upgrades the sensor outpost to feed targeting data to all ranged troops around it, increasing their accuracy and effectiveness.

At level 5, the Pathfinder is able to get in touch with the nearest Sky Ray Squadron, who pledge their seeker missiles to his markerlights. Each outpost is individually able to fire a seeker missile with its markerlight, albeit at a long cooldown. Each seeker missile is limited by 1 markerlight each.

At level 6, the Sensor Outposts are so advanced that the pathfinder is able to direct them to hijack the remote drone network flying above. Using those drones, the sensor towers can light up an area with markerlights, obliterating whole units.

No tower, however, can be within the range of another's Markerlight. As this range grows, so does the distance between towers.



Now that that's done, onto your last post.

Err, Grass. Markerlight being the innate in no way, shape, or form avoids the forced synergy problem you're stating. Just seems like "Because I say so, it'll be ok, but you can't have it that way, because of (Insert random reason here). But I'll wait for your reason.

How did you think the Pathfinder would send the Warhead down in the first place? Using his arms? I fail to see your logic, and don't term drop on me the concept of forced synergy, because I understand that concept. I'm just afraid I don't see how it's relevant if I take into account your "unless the Markerlight is the innate" statement. Elaborate, please.
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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 3 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:21 am

Forced synergy: you can't force them to learn a skill to make another skill work. It limits their options.
As in: darkstar as is doesn't work without learning marker light. That's bad.

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Post by Glycine on Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:42 am

Grass, could we be realistic here? You're nitpicking at a moot point, because if a person *doesn't* get Markerlight with Pathfinder, that person is...stupid. It's like Rakel not getting Lightning Arc or Cato not getting his Guard.

If it was a more egregious kind of forced synergy, like one skill holding up a whole 3 skills, then I would see your point. But saying that Pathfinder won't get Markerlight is ludicrous. Find a more justifiable explanation, because that's like Karandras not getting Critical Strike.

What is the difference between the forced synergy needed to fire a seeker missile as of now and that to fire a darkstar? Just because one is the innate doesn't make it any less forced of a synergy. If you want it to fire, you have to mark them without exception, or the skill does nothing. So what's the distinction between forced synergy of use and forced synergy of concept when the two are almost interchangeable?

Will you comment on the rest of my post? oo




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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:50 am

I only commented on that cause I'm out ATM.
Abd dispite your disagreeal, that is an issue that needs to be adressed. You *can not* force a player to pick a certain skill in order to have another skill work

edit (sorry i missed this part):
the difference between that and now: you arent *forced* to level any skills, because you always have markerlight no matter what.

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:29 am

anywho, sadly, i doo have to ignore you last post cause your operating on a few wrong assumptions.

1: seeker missle does a % of enemies hp
2: seeker missle remains the ult

i want to give the towers the seeker missle skill and replace the pathfinder's ult with your darkstar (provided we can find a way to remove the reliance on learning markerlight)
this would give a way to be able to reduce the damage done by seeker missles.

also: you say that i cant just make some changes 'because i say so' then go go ahead and say that seeker missles cant do anything less than 100 damage 'because you say so', and that these towers cant be placed closer than X distance to each other 'because you say so'

your getting too caught up in the fluff, and its affecting game balance.


that being said, i do like the limiting tower proximity idea, and between that and reducing the damage on seeker missles (by making them a tower skill) and (maby) a diminishing returns on stacking missles, it *should* be fine.
keep towers as a regular skill
towers gain the seeker missle skill
towers' markerlight skills level independantly (to avoid forced synergy issues with learning the path's markerlight)
towers within X range of another (get 'Doom'ed, silenced, or just cant be placed)
(you can even have your 'gain skills as you level it' idea Razz 1: vision/true sight, 2: markerlight, 3: trueshot, 4: seeker missle - that is much less of a skillpoint waster as a regular skill than as an innate, and i still dont even think its nessesary)


another thing: in your projected build, did you notice what you did there? you spent points on towers/markerlight like they were regular skills, with surpressive as the 'other skill', and then leveled Vanguard like most people would level the innate (after you've leveled the other skills)

sorry im a bit all over the place in my post, its kinda late and i typed stuff out as i thought of them
alot of ideas were going through my mind on the car ride back Razz

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Heroes:
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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 3 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Glycine on Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:48 am

Grass, I'm operating on the hero as he is now to prove a point to you.

*You* suggested it could do a % of enemies's health, so I tried to prove to you that's useless. I even added diminishing returns onto it if you read carefully. I know my posts contain a lot of info, but you can't add the disclaimer that it was the middle of the night and you were tired *every single long post I write*.

Even if Seeker Missile isn't the ult, simply subtract the last value from my calculations and you have all the towers's missiles. Is that so hard?

One, seeker missiles *should* not do anything less than 100 damage for the sake of common sense. The fluff demands they should be even better, but I don't want that. If anything, we're both getting caught up in the way we want to see it, but your way has no realistic standing.

Two, you can't say that my idea is "just because I say so" and then turn around and use the concept as if it actually had meaning. It's a bit insulting when you criticize me for coming up with an idea and then use it anyway without a bit of credit. You're the creator, so you get free rein to do that, but I don't? ._.

Lastly, I work with the fluff. It's what I do. And there are certain things that I will not stand for, that is, the degradation of a concept to make it fit *your* "omniscient" balancing skills. If anything, my idea makes Pathfinder harder to play, and he should be harder than most heroes. What your idea still does is make him just as hard early game, when he does the bulk of his damage, and doesn't change the fact that at level 7, all towers have a seeker missile.

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:32 am

I really don't know where I said that missles should do a % of a heroes HP. Can you point that out to me so I can slap my self.

And on your idea, I did say 'I do like the limiting tower proximity idea' I'm sorry I didn't give more props than that.

And of he gets missles at 7 its like having a lvl1 current ult... Less. Because he (would now) has 3 nukes, they can't be too powerful anyway.

Also: skyray assault. Missles doing 15 damage.

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
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Post by Glycine on Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:23 pm

Grass Hopper wrote:gly: thats not what i meant by how do the missles work on the towers :Pp
does it work like the current ult, but on the towers instead?

also! if this is all about the opness of stacking markerlight with seeker missles, just nerf the tower's seeker misles.
the problem with the missles now is that they stack additivly for each markerlight stack on the target, giving them potentiall game breaking damage.
they just need to stack muliplicitavly (somehow >.>) or give diminishing returns for each markerlight stack. like each missle deals X% or -X damage of the last one on the same target

You did not explicitly say of a hero's health, but I included that scenario and the one you postulated above. Both do not work. I interpreted it multiple ways, so you don't need to slap yourself.

It's not the props, grass. It's the fact you can arbitrarily make something into reality while saying that the rest of us cannot. Yes, you are the creator, but it's not the way to treat others.

As of now, it's actually like a level 4-5 ult. 187 damage per missile times 5/6 is equal to 935/1122 damage. Late game, you face the problem of making the damage from missiles useless because heroes can either mana shield/ability block/regen the 50-100 damage you're suggesting the missiles do.

To balance them, you'll need to lower the damage to an extent where they become useless late-game. Which is exactly what you did with Skyray Assault, the most useless AoE spell in the entire map. Early game, people walk out of it, late game, people can walk *through* it. Unless you can cast the spell on a single enemy, the damage is dispersed throughout all units, making it ineffective. Skyray Assault was derived from DoW, and has no equivalent in the Tau Arsenal, because even they know it's stupid to waste that many missiles, not to mention the lack of markerlights.

To be frank, I did not fancy Aun'va's skillset. For the sake of fairness, Pacify is awesome, and the Honour Guard perform their task (Even though they're supposed to be MELEE!!!!!!). >> Please take a look at the most recent Tau Codex and check the illustration of Aun'va below his details. Too much influence from DoW, I think, tainted his character a bit in comparison to what he actually is.

So that's why, after I finish Karandras, I'll see what I can think up for him.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:38 pm

Missles. Each consecutive missle on the same target would do only a % of the previous missles damage, as aabalancimg factor.
One missle would not be useless but all of them wouldn't insta kill

Amdbi like your idea. I think it should he used. It just annoys me that you get on my case about 'just cause' and then do it. But it is a good idea.


As to aunva, the only thing prolly influenced by Dow would be skyray.
Ethereals are *required* to take a firewarior bodyguard. Presense is straight from TT. Pacify and paradox are from the fluff.

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 3 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Glycine on Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:21 pm

Aun'va does *not* take a fire warrior bodyguard. He takes a special honor guard that are equipped with Honour Blades. They *do not* have pulse rifles nor do they look like Fire Warriors. Regular Ethereals take Fire Warriors, but is Aun'va a regular one?

Presence is indeed from TT, and we made up the effects for Paradox. Pacify is, however, nowhere to seen anywhere, so could I get a pointing as to where I can find it in the fluff?

Grass, you do realize I did the calculations for that type of diminishing returns and if the Pathfinder sets up his towers the same to get 3+ Markerlight hits, in addition to his own, that's still a ridiculous chunk of damage.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:38 pm

Ok so I was misinformed:P he Still isn't influenced by Dow
And I think the flavor text on the pacify skill *is* the fluff in the dex. I don't know tho cause from found it.

250 base at lvl 4 (however you get there) and -50% for each missle after that on the same target.
That's about 490 damage with 6 missles. And considering he still has darkstar and surprrssing.

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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 3 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Glycine on Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:10 pm

What happens if you fire one missile, but then wait 20 seconds to fire another from another tower on the same person? A minute? 2 minutes? In this way, you can potentially avoid the diminishing returns.

A smart pathfinder could potentially line the back paths of lanes with towers and even put a few in bases to catch runners and it would be unlikely that diminishing returns would apply, because that would be absurd. It does keep a clamp down on the people who stack towers in one place, but that's not how to play him.

Also, if you don't know who found it, shouldn't *you* go find the fluff for Pacify to lend credence to the skill? Otherwise, it's a random thing put there with no support but to help Aun'va..
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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 3 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:13 pm

Because I thought that the seeker missles on the towers would work like it does now.

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:18 pm

Because I thought that the seeker missles on the towers would work like it does now.

Either way, if you fire one at a time, its dealing less than a regular nuke anyway Razz and 22222mins between them? Not that devastating

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:23 am

Also, I feel the need to appologise. I've been feeling out of sorts lately and may have come off as a bit snappy or similar in my posts. I meant no harm or disrespect in anything I said.

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Post by Glycine on Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:12 am

Lol, it's all good. ^^;

The playstyle of the towers, however, will change, and one has to anticipate how the missiles will be placed and used, since towers can no longer be stacked.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:29 am

Ahhh stealth edits! Or I completly missed that XD
Either wat, in pretty sure from found it. But I can look for it if you want [COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 3 Icon_razz

edit: ok so maby it doesnt specifically say that anywhere, but *all* throughout Aun'va's fluff there are examples of the power of his extremly motivating/inspiring/calming ect. speaches and words.

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And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
"Behold The Stuff! It Is Good!"
And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Post by Glycine on Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:47 pm

To his allies, yes, to his enemies, a huge no.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:50 pm

eh, it can be adapted Razz like alot of things in the map are Razz
it works gly

Edit: and just cause its not documented doesn't mean it cant/hasnt happened Razz

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warning! very-stubborn, sarcastic, self-important, argumentative developer detected!

And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
"Behold The Stuff! It Is Good!"
And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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[COMPLETE]pathfinder - Page 3 Empty Re: [COMPLETE]pathfinder

Post by Glycine on Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:35 pm

Grass, what? Just because it "works" doesn't mean the skill shouldn't be examined. You once again work with gameplay and ignore the fluff, even when it breaks common sense. Aun'va's speech applies *only* to his Tau allies, because he's xenophobic towards all other species. He's not a master of the soft word to convert individuals into the Tau cause.

I could say that Wraiths act as spies or Carnifexes have a very short lifespan. Those aren't documented, so that must mean there's a chance of them happening?

You are walking down a dangerous path, Grass, one where if it fits the gameplay, no matter how tenuous the support is for it in the lore, any skill can go through. And that is not really a road I would care to share in, because then what's the point of me spending countless hours doing research on heroes and fluff when you are perfectly willing to take a scrap of info in the wrong context and transform that info into something that has no basis?

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:24 pm

lmao dont get me wrong, i completly agree with that train of thought, in general.

but its not a far stretch to believe that aun'va's words would work in some way on his enemies.

and im sure you've said tones of times that where fluff doesnt specify we can create our own fluff.


edit: omg im home for the night for once! o.o

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warning! very-stubborn, sarcastic, self-important, argumentative developer detected!

And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
"Behold The Stuff! It Is Good!"
And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Post by Glycine on Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:54 pm

It's a gigantic stretch, Grass. Aun'va's words are meant to inspire his Tau troops to KILL everything that opposes the Greater Good. He has but vitriol for the enemies of the Tau, and he's not a Water Caste diplomat capable of honeying his words.

You are allowed to make your own fluff as long as it is internally consistent with the fluff that is written.

One can say that a Space Marine from the Deathwatch could potentially join the Eldar for a period of time and that would be substantiated, however absurd, by the evidence that the Pact of Isha does exist and under the right circumstances, like a Necron plan in the works, the two could coexist for only that period.

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:41 pm

he needs proper icons

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And unto the masses, He doth spoke:
"Behold The Stuff! It Is Good!"
And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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