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Orcs and Marines being the same.... Really? I_vote_lcap63%Orcs and Marines being the same.... Really? I_vote_rcap 63% [ 5 ]
Orcs and Marines being the same.... Really? I_vote_lcap38%Orcs and Marines being the same.... Really? I_vote_rcap 38% [ 3 ]

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Orcs and Marines being the same.... Really?

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Post by Mortis on Mon May 03, 2010 1:49 pm

Ok... While i know its an established part of the game that its Orcs Versus Space marines for the spawns that run at eachother...But having them be exactly equal fighters is totally against the fluff... Even if its balanced.

My proposition is that we replace all of the orc references in the aos for the spawns with Chaos Marines. Looking at the two codex, the Chaos Marines and the Normal ones have the EXACT same characteristics. Would it be so difficult a switch? It would make more sense balance wise anyways.
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Post by Fairemont on Mon May 03, 2010 1:56 pm

I like Orks. Sometimes you have to forgo fluff for balance, because the game requires balancing, so, fluff is secondary.

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Post by Mortis on Mon May 03, 2010 4:08 pm

Well, Using marines would make the game auto balanced. They would use the EXACT same profile, and similar skins. You just need to make the Chaos Marines black and gold, which makes them The Black Legion
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Post by Fairemont on Mon May 03, 2010 4:10 pm

Orks are best.

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Post by Grass Hopper on Mon May 03, 2010 4:40 pm

find me a space marine model, and ill... think... about it
(not to mention fitting base buildings too)

yes, orks shouldnt be on par with space marines stat wise... but:
Fairemont wrote:I like Orks. Sometimes you have to forgo fluff for balance, because the game requires balancing, so, fluff is secondary.

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Post by Glycine on Mon May 03, 2010 4:47 pm

If we did imperial guardsmen and some random melee unit, that could work.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Mon May 03, 2010 5:07 pm

but then commissar would be the wtf question, not the orks Razz

and orks > ig

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Post by Mortis on Mon May 03, 2010 5:11 pm

Ok... Well

Cant you just use the model editor to take the exact same units that you use for the Space marines, color them black and gold, And rename them to Chaos Raptor, And Chaos Marine, And have it work out perfectly? It just offends my idea of fluff with it being the way it is now.

As for buildings, use Portals, i know there are the glowing purple portals, for some of the base buildings, and stuff like that. MAYBE we could find the Space marine buildings and such on the websites, but that should work. Better then what we do now anways
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Post by Grass Hopper on Mon May 03, 2010 5:13 pm

do you want to edit a model skin? Razz

its not that easy, and space marines are significantly more... spiky.

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Post by ZebioLizard on Mon May 03, 2010 6:21 pm

I'd rather have chaos vs space marine, then it makes sense xD
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Post by 13loodRaven on Thu May 06, 2010 8:46 am

Indeed it does make sense, and then orks can go be neutral creeps. They are quite the poor fighting force in the galaxy, lacking the technology, but they have the numbers, they just quarrel among themselves too much.

HOWEVER

Chaos vs Spacem's makes the whole good vs. evil thing work.
If orks were to fight marines... They would be... Stomped?
Fairemont does have a good point, but everything is odd with the aos.

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Post by ZebioLizard on Thu May 06, 2010 8:52 am

13loodRaven wrote:Indeed it does make sense, and then orks can go be neutral creeps. They are quite the poor fighting force in the galaxy, lacking the technology, but they have the numbers, they just quarrel among themselves too much.

HOWEVER

Chaos vs Spacem's makes the whole good vs. evil thing work.
If orks were to fight marines... They would be... Stomped?
Fairemont does have a good point, but everything is odd with the aos.

Everything is odd with that post alone. Poor fighting force? Lacking the technology? They have teleporters on a better scale then ELDAR (actually knowing how to build it) Unconventinal tactics and overall beating the hell out of everything

And no, orks can indeed fight space marines, the strength and thickness of their skin actually allow them to get up close, and bash some 'Umies heads in, and the big warbosses can actually take out squads of marines on their own.
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Post by Mortis on Thu May 06, 2010 3:41 pm

Not really.... In TT id take an assault marine squad on the charge over the warboss any day, the boss had better have a squad of nobs to back him up or hed get raped...

Secondly the Orcs win by numerical advantage. Their technology is rampant, but unpredictable, with a 'Teleporta' requiring such extreme levels of maintenance and support that execpt in extremely rare circumstances, they are rendered useless.

Chaos Marines v. Normal marines would balance the game SO much, and make the fluff better/
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Post by Glycine on Thu May 06, 2010 3:57 pm

Rynn's world would like to have a word with you. So does every other civilization that fights the orks.

Considering that the creeps have the same stats and attack, they're already balanced by definition. If you mean balanced-fluff wise, go find us a modeler. And orks aren't exactly useless when they can pilfer deathstrike missiles. Their technology works well enough so that they win battles, and that's not useless at all nor a rare occurence.

I wouldn't mind seeing chaos marines as well, but the status quo stays until we get models for them.
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Post by Mortis on Thu May 06, 2010 4:51 pm

My argument was pure flavor and fluff in the first place glyc. My argument was that in both the TT and DoW and all the books, orks dont, on a 1v1 ratio, equal space marines, like they do here. Chaos Marines are basically the same as Space marines, which is why i made the suggestion.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu May 06, 2010 4:59 pm

Mortis wrote:Not really.... In TT id take an assault marine squad on the charge over the warboss any day, the boss had better have a squad of nobs to back him up or hed get raped...

i would take an assault marine squad on the charge over a shit-ton of other single HQ choices as well... fail comparision.


and stat-wise and gameplay-wise, the lane creeps are *balanced*
if you dont like the fact that the Orks are fighting the Space Marines, then i emplore you to either find some chaos models, or start modeling for us.

untill that hapens, we wont be able to change this
(because Orks > IG)

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Post by Mortis on Thu May 06, 2010 9:11 pm

>.< And since orks . IG, we cant do the other logical shift. Damn it... Ok. Well, get me the program to do modeling, and ill give it a try i guess
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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu May 06, 2010 9:13 pm

there is no 'one' program to do modeling on... sadly your on your own here cause i really cant help.

look at some tutorials online, thhelper.net...
also... 3dStudio Max V4 or something like that has wc3 art tools for it

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Post by Mortis on Thu May 06, 2010 9:15 pm

Ok... Well, ill see what i can find/do... I know a friend who does map triggers and editing and such, ill ask him, he has his own map he works on, its pretty good, and involved as hell.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu May 06, 2010 9:16 pm

kk, cept triggering/maping is *very* different from modeling XD

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
Commander Farsight (colab - implemented) - Ku'gaath Plaguefather(incomplete) - Ilyana Arienal(incomplete) - Harlequin Shadowseer(incomplete) - Modular Tau Battlesuit(sandbox)
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Post by 13loodRaven on Fri May 07, 2010 8:30 am

For modelling you need something like jasc painshop pro. Thats what I use to fiddle with models.

Oh and; Here is something interesting;
Scout vs. Slugga
Marine vs. Shoota
Raptors vs. Storms
Chaplain vs. Mad Doc
Terminator vs. Nobz
Grey Knights vs. Mega Armoured Nobz
Commander vs. Warboss

And sm vehicles have the advantage over ork vehicles... Always...

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Post by ZebioLizard on Sat May 08, 2010 6:07 am

Grey Knights aren't Space Marine. They are Inquisitor.

Assault Marines Vs storms (raptors are chaos)

Honour Guard (Can replace with Terminator) vs Nobz
Assault Terminator (Can replace with Legion of the Damned Marine) vs Mega Armored Nobz
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Post by 13loodRaven on Sat May 08, 2010 10:49 am

Im just listing the forces at each race's disposal. Not like im going to list each clan for orks. Grey Knights are technically space marine, they have the same superior gene seed. (But cheers for correcting me with the am's.)

But that wasn't the point of that list. That list was to compare a unit against another of the same type. I did it so we can compare pro's and cons, and that sm's are stronger than orks. (Whole race wise)

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Post by ZebioLizard on Sat May 08, 2010 3:40 pm

Except you can't use gray knights in a SM army. But there's an issue with your few statements. One, if slugga's get in melee with things like tactical marines, they are going to have hell, or scouts, or devestator... None assault terminators are going to hurt like hell if nobz get in their face, espically if power klaw equipped, and mega armored nobz, well.. They can actually take on assault terminators.

The one issue you keep forgetting is, that nearly every ork can punch the ****ing lights out of half the space marine army should they get close, even comparing some other things.

Librarian vs warphead.
Apocathary vs Mad Doc (chaplain isn't anything special at all in the books, he grants fearless..thats all)
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Post by 13loodRaven on Sun May 09, 2010 9:23 am

But the sm race is stronger than orks. If the orks were to unit universally I would take that comment back. Just saying that Chaos vs SM's would be more balanced fluff wise

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