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Changes to the way I release versions? (read the thread)

what remains to do in version .46? - Page 2 I_vote_lcap63%what remains to do in version .46? - Page 2 I_vote_rcap 63% [ 5 ]
what remains to do in version .46? - Page 2 I_vote_lcap38%what remains to do in version .46? - Page 2 I_vote_rcap 38% [ 3 ]

Total Votes : 8

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» With everyone dead
what remains to do in version .46? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20, 2018 3:24 pm by DeusMechanicus

» Faction creeps
what remains to do in version .46? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 21, 2014 12:49 am by Grass Hopper

» [SCII] [Inquisition] Hector Rex
what remains to do in version .46? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 18, 2014 9:06 am by Grass Hopper

» [necrons] Orikan, the Diviner
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» Talent System
what remains to do in version .46? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 15, 2014 10:59 am by Grass Hopper

» Capture Points system
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» [SCII] [Orks] Warboss(es)
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» Game Guide
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» [Inquisition] Mordrak
what remains to do in version .46? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 10, 2014 3:28 pm by Grass Hopper

» [inquiition] Kaldor Draigo
what remains to do in version .46? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 10, 2014 3:07 pm by Grass Hopper

Version Progress
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what remains to do in version .46?

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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:15 am

Yes, better numbers would prolly be 15-10% and I has evry intention of changing that next time I had access to the editor.
However, again, they are just numbers. And I can feel that this kind of thing will play out different in-game than it looks on paper.

As to your (non-noted Razz) edit.
It doesn't reduce all damage. Only if its greater than the threshold.
10 damage events isn't a lot really. It'll do next to nothing vs regular attacks. It only helps him vs burst.

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Post by Glycine on Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:52 am

Too. Much. Survivability. Way too much. It basically gives the middle finger to all nukes the entire game. You cannot nuke him, because then your burst damage is cut by a ridiculous amount. And there are too many nukes in the game for this to slide under the carpet and not be noticed.

Though 10 damage events isn't a lot, but when it turns into 20, then you have a problem.

Say I have a 3600 health tank and a 2500 health Commie, both at level 25, as well as an auto-nuker machine that does 300 pure damage. The tank can take 12 hits, while Commie, who's NOT a tank, can take 20. If you're a ranged character, you can wail on commie, but he will outsurvive most heroes and outlevel them.

He's a pusher who also pseudo-tanks. Fuegan happens to be a ganker who pseudo-tanks. Care to guess what's in common between the two? Razz

Again, it's not the numbers, as you noted in my edit. You seem to think somehow that numbers will fix concepts when that really can't happen. Maybe your concept will be wildly successful and go onto spawn 40 other clones in other maps, but I find that highly dubious.

And if you did the math, you find it "does" do something to regular attacks.

Most heroes have an attack of 140-200 at end-game. If a commissar has 2.5k health, attacks can only do at most to him 125. So you're cutting anywhere from 15% to 35% from normal attacks, which is a significant amount. End-game, all damage amounts, aside from single-target/aoe multi-damage event spells like firestorm and winds of chaos, are reduced by the innate at current values.

If you increase your values to 15-10, then it's much harder for regular attacks to pass the threshold but it all depends on how much health Commie has.
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Post by Fairemont on Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:34 am

I know how that is... I played against Commie once and I had a damage output of some serious shizz, must have been like 450 or something. Idk.. it was as high as I could possibly get it, but Commie just ran away while I was hammering on him. I couldn't kill him and it was extremely frustrating. Lol

I don't want to even think about it if he was harder to kill...

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Post by cellrawr on Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:56 am

<_< Um, grass, this medallion thing going in randomly was what was causing commie to drop from 1 hit from anything, wasn't it.

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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:57 am

Yes Razz that's fixed

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:12 am

fixed up the items (i assumed you were right on the costs)
and changed unstuck: it now takes 15 seconds, then moves the hero back to base, but hides it, and moves the camera to base over 30 seconds, at which point, the hero is unhidden.
ill need to test to see if a hidden unit can move or be selected (it cant even be selected by clicking the hero icon, so it should be fine)

leaver pods... are a bitch. and i cant even test them, but ive tried something else that i very much doubt will work but oh well.

and ive done a few fix ups on other issues

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Post by Mortis on Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:30 am

Grass... If someone hotkeys the hidden hero, does that still select it? That used to be how people would stack in Starcraft... Im not sure if it works here, but might want to check it out.
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Post by Fairemont on Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:47 am

You dont have to give a hero a hotkey.

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:29 pm

I don't think so. Hidden in wc3 is something like... Remove the model and selection sphere.
I do know that you can't select a hidden hero using f1 or clicking the box in the top left, so I can only assume regular hotkeys won't work.

Oh and sc stacking worked cause you didn't have vision to yourself Razz

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Post by Mortis on Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:53 pm

I was just telling you something that might happen/ occur... I don't know how it happens in this one.

Anything else need testing?
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Post by Grass Hopper on Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:29 pm

Nothing pressing apart from play testing for balance. That I can think of.
That's why this thread exists Razz so people can remind me

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Post by Mortis on Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:23 am

Warphead needs a fix. At level sixteen i couldnt lane for more then 30 seconds before my own spells killed me. For an AOS that removes alot of the run of it. My hero would kill himself so quickly all the enemy heros needed to do was nuke me once to get the kill, as my health drops so rapidly and so constantly.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:31 am

Its on my to do list.
I already have some fixes planned.

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Post by ZebioLizard on Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:21 am

Everything! Razz Nah, I kid, havn't played in forever.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:28 am

Omg look who it is Razz

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Post by ZebioLizard on Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:56 am

Yep, I'm still alive, prolly be coming around to war3 to check around things, since I've been mainly trying to beat alotta single player games, so I've neglected sc2/war3 customs xD
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Post by Glycine on Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:57 am

On a side note, I'm not entirely sure you've grasped what makes Ahriman so powerful. Yes, the damage nerf on Doombolt is generally a good thing, but the cooldown increase on Chains does absolutely nothing to his skillset. The difference between 23 and 26 seconds is so trivial as to not even matter in the big picture. Yes, it may cost him a few deaths or kills over the span of 1000 games, but that's not the problem.

The core problem is that he can refresh all his skillsets just like that, making him the best burster in the game. Assuming 150 intelligence, Ahriman will pump out 6 bolts of 162 damage, hold an AoE for 4 seconds, ult and murder most heroes who don't have a good deal of intelligence, press the innate, and repeat. If a hero has half as much intelligence as him, that's 75 *3 damage per second for 5 seconds.

If you can get 4/6 bolts to hit, that's usually a good strike. So if that's total'd up, you get 650 damage with the first doombolt, chains for 4 seconds, ult immediately for 225 x ~5 seconds for 1125 damage, refresh, chains again, 650 with doombolt again, ult again for 1125 damage.

Add all that up, and you get 3550 magical damage, reduced to 2662 pure damage.

Hmm, I wonder how he ISN'T imbalanced....

In short, FIX THE DAMN CAUSE NOT THE NUMBERS. The concept is bugged, not the numbers.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:08 pm

one thing. ive played ahriman a few times since the attempt to fix, and unless the hero is in very close proximity to a few creeps, its not likely to get hit by 4 bolts.
its usually 1 or 2, sometimes 3, from my experiance.


ok, as to the epic spam of spells:
-1, thats what he does. his spells are powerful, cost a ton of mana, and have high cooldowns. but he has his innate.
-2 manacost(assuming max level):
doombolt is 235 mana, chains of torment is 240 mana, rubric is 500 mana. (with 150 int) staff costs 750 mana.
with 1 cast (no innate) itll cost 975 mana
with 2 casts (and innate) itll cost 2700 mana.

with 150 int, he has 2250 mana.
either he doesnt cast his ult the second time, or doesnt cast his two spells.
assuming FULL mana.
which you shouldnt have in the first place really.





also, unrelated note completly, adressing chains as an individual skill.
should i either:
-reduce the base duration (to something like 1.75 max, i think)
-change the base spell from Entangling Roots to Ensnare (fear of darkness uses ensnare)

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Post by Glycine on Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:40 pm

What is fear of darkness? xD What will be the main difference between the two?

2 seconds is usually a good number, but if it warrants a 1.75, that's ok.

So I just did some mathcrafting on him.

With Staff, spear, ultha, 2 spiri, and a sacr, he has 2940 mana with 196 intelligence. Easily enough to cover the cost. He regens 3000 mana in ~40 seconds, meaning a rate of 75 mana per second.

Now then, let's factor in the costs.

235 for a doombolt, 240 for chains, 500 for the ult, 1000 for the innate.
Doombolt and chains take about 1 second to cast in their entirety, assume the ult holds for 5 seconds.

0:00: Start.
0:01: Doombolt
0:02: Chains
0:03-7: Ult
0:08: Innate
0:09: Doombolt
0:10: Chains
0:11-5: Ult

That's pretty much the fastest you can pull off the combo in a battle situation.
Thus...

Gross usage: 470 + 500 + 1000 + 1000 = 2970.
15 seconds of regeneration: 1125 mana!
When I used it, I found I had about 1000 mana left, which makes sense according to the data.

So yes, mana regeneration on the scale of 400-500% makes it extremely possible to get every single spell off with 500-1000 mana to spare.

And Grass:
thats what he does. his spells are powerful, cost a ton of mana, and have high cooldowns. but he has his innate.

What he does is be imbalanced. >> I think I addressed the mana cost already. >>

Also, one thing that came up that may or may not be relevant. Doombolt can't hit the broad side of a barn even if you bribed it to. I don't know how increasing the radius from 200 to 250 did this, but I tried to hit the largest things in the game more than twice and it took a lot of tries to do so. I was only able to get 3 hits on the mag at the top right.

That was at 176 damage on normal creeps, so assuming you can only get 250-270 damage after resistance on heroes per doombolt is certainly a very deflating concept. I mean, I was doing 240 damage on hit to creeps, so it basically shifts the focus from doombolt to his autoattack and chains.



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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:53 pm

Triggered aoe doesn't care about collision size, only the center of the model.
And I think the bolt scatter aoe before was something like 150 or 175. It was smaller than the actual aoe.

Roots (current chains) doesn't allow attacking and some spells I think.
Ensnare (disable on fear( allows attacks and more spells I think.

And yes, with full mana he can cover the cost of the spells.
But he won't he able to of he's using mana shield or using spells before the combo.

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Post by Glycine on Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:02 pm

Err, Grass. He regens 75 mana a second. He's almost guaranteed to be able to combo up even if he uses spells before the combo.

And if he uses mana shield, that only applies if he's being ganked or going up against multiple heroes by just himself. So either you're the only good person on your team or you're screwed regardless because mana shield won't cover the massive hurt coming to you.

Mana shield is meant to prevent successful ganks and give you a little bit of extra survivability, so it isn't supposed to be on all the time. (Hint: -off)

We did forget mana burn, but if you're being mana burned to oblivion, not being able to use spells would apply for any caster.

Again, in short, Ahriman will regenerate any mana to counter both the losses from mana shield and spells before a combo. So what are you going to do to fix this? I've given you a lot of evidence that the concept is wrong, even if doombolt is epic fail now.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:43 pm

And he can do this when? Extreme late game when everyone has a full inventory? A lot of ppl are powerful with a full inventory.

He's powerful yes, very poweful infact and I won't let late-end game power stqy the same. I'm looking into it.

But play a few games with the most recent version in the mean time

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Post by ZebioLizard on Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:26 am

A fully decked out Keeper of Secrets > Ahriman. Hook, Line, ****ed
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Post by cellrawr on Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:55 am

*dodge hook*

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Post by Glycine on Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:03 pm

*gets hooked, chains that bastard, combos for 2k damage, over*
Magic damage > Armor

*pokes cell to post Fateweaver*
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