Thoughts about Fuegan.

Grass and I had a big discussion about him last night, but I want to hear what you all think about him? Is he balanced as a character or does he need changes?

and some quick points from last night:
gly things he should be changed to a str hero, and change up his stats a few to focus his nuker/tanker role more, because as an agility hero, he is to powerful a dps hero.
and my points were that even if fuegan was a str hero, he would have the same dps as agi fuegan (as agi fuegan got his dps from items), thus not being an effective change.

and now: my stance? i think hes fine, but his burst damage is too op.

Well, you know what I think about making it STR (Won't change much. Hell, it might even make him better due to Sword of Secrets buffing his damage as well as giving life-steal and HP.), but I do feel he needs some kind of change. That being said, I haven't seen his new innate in action, so that may fix my problem, BUT, if he's still as solid as before (tank-wise), then yes, his burst damage is too high.

I'm not particularly happy that he's a DPS, tank, and nuker all at the same time. Each role helps him immensely throughout all stages of the game, making him a very good character, almost a little too good, as it's embarrassingly hard to kill him as he simply pushes down the lane, shrugs off tower hits, and kills most heroes who try to stop him 1 on 1, even pure DPS.

Plus, that 100 damage passive skill is sick. So while some melee DPS is trying to kill Fuegan, he not only takes the first nuke, armor debuff, and ult nuke, he also gets a free 100 damage per second in additional to Fuegan's fast and hard-hitting attack. That's not counting armor reduction, but still.

dont talk about fuegans fast hard hitting attack because that comes from items so can be pretty much taken out of the equation. and making him a str wont change that, because there are more than enough str dps items as i proved the other night that would make his dps just as strong (and he would become prolly more survivable due to lifesteal)

agility:
ravens talons -7500:
20 damage, 15 agi, 40% ias, rending
cylcic ion blaster -5150:
12 damage, 10 agi, 50% ias, critical
tyrants claw -5350:
8 str, 8 agi, 15 damge, 30% ias

total: 58 damage, 93 ias, 160 hp, 2 armor -or- 45 damage, 98 ias, 160 hp, 2 armor

strength:
sword of secrets -7000g:
20 str, 20 damage, lifesteal
tyrants claw -5350:
8 str, 8 agi, 15 damage, 30% ias

total: 63 damage, 38 ias, 560 hp, 1 armor

the agi dps rout gets mroe ias, but the str dps route gets more damage and hp, as well as lifesteal (or you could replace the sword with a thunder hammer, and get a slow orb, and more hp, as well as an aoe nuke (which adds to fuegans burst damage)

Wait... aren't Raven's Talons and Cyclic both two-handed weapons?

It's one or the other, noted by the "or".

The point is, he can't be all a tank, dps, and nuker at the same time.

I do think 60% IAS combined with a 2x crit (15%) makes a bigger signficant difference in DPS than 18 additional damage, just based on what you're giving me. I really don't care if he becomes more survivable. That's good. So what if he has lifesteal and a bit more life? He's certainly not going to attack as fast as an agility hero, that's for sure, no matter how many items he's given.

And one other thing. I believe we should limit lifesteal to melee characters alone as to restore some parity to the field. Unless it's specifically designated that this ranged character can restore life from afar, it seems a bit imba.

theres no real reason to limit lifesteal to ranged only chars cept because 'its too powerful' but thats a poor reason.

ok, so he wont attack as fast, but hell still be able to dps better, or around the same ammount, because str heroes make the best dps chars (look at the thirster, he was the #1 imba hero for a while, same with runtherd, and even celestene had her bit)

Wait... Runtherd was imba at some point?

And thanks Gly, hadn't seen that.


However, keep in mind you can also stack Combat Drugs and such for IAS. The crit is really better for some chars, but I dunno, with Fuegan it can go either way. I think I'd rather have the life-steal (And I've seen Fuegans get Sword of Secrets before for lifesteal and the "omg you can't kill me" factor it gives him when mixed with his [old] innate and drugs.) than the crit on him though. Maybe that's just me though?

HOWEVER, I personally feel making him STR would actually make him worse now that I think about it, since it would make a hero who, IMO is already too hard to take down considering his burst damage, even harder to kill.

He'll be imba if he's either Str or Agi, and he's not inherently an intelligence character, so we say. Quite a conundrum.

However.

Saying Str. heroes make the best DPS heroes is flawed in a way, because very few of them can DPS. Sure, they can be quite dominant as DPS, but most Str. heroes don't have the skills to do so. Bloodthirster's pretty much the only one, with Kharn as a side dish, whereas we have Lucius, Karandras, and quite a few Agility heroes. It's important to distinguish between characters who have the best potential to DPS and characters who actually are DPS heroes.

Sure, every Str. hero can stack combat drugs and stim. packs, but that only increases their attack speed. I don't see Carnifex, Captain, Necron Lord, Chaplain, Avatar or nearly every Str. hero stacking combat drugs to become DPS characters, despite the fact everyone knows DPS characters are the best end game. >> You don't tailor your items to be something you're inherently not; you tailor them according to what skills and strengths you possess as a character.

Basically your logic states that most Str. and Agi. characters can get the same items and fulfill the same role, whereas that's technically impossible. An Agi. character when stacked with the same items as a Str. character and equal playing ability will more times than not triumph over the Str. hero, if both are playing to optimize DPS.

The playing field may be equal, but one kind of hero already has a step up on the other.

On a side note...

Should we think about nerfing combat drugs/stim packs a bit so that people can't skirt their own agility as much?

Right, that was kind of the point... Not all DPS heroes will be the best at their roles, even if they can adapt to it, and in this game, the best ones are not such because of their attribute, it is because of their skill.

AGI fits the DPS THEME the best, but the real reason these heroes you mentioned are amazing at DPS is because of their skills that compliment it (Same reason why I don't think Blood is a good proof for how STR heroes can be DPS. It's his skills, not his stat, that allow this.).

Also, Chaplain is most definitely a DPS hero. I tend to forget he exists, but he definitely is.

So desu ka... Ja..

So does Fuegan have skills that complement DPS? I don't think so at all.

And yes, Chappy can DPS if he isn't ganked every 5 minutes. (Which he will be)

Glycine wrote:
So does Fuegan have skills that complement DPS? I don't think so at all.

thats what i was trying to say all along XD

and critical is better when paired with high damage rather than with high ias, so cyclic is better gotten as a second item once your damage is already higher ish just mechanics/theory crafting food for thought

anywho, as gly just said, fuegan doestn have the skills to complement a dps role, but the items enable him to dps well. I think that ias is too easily atainable (most high end agi items give +40 ish ias, so im prolly gonna apply the global item nerf to items too, but not 50% redcution, prolly like 70%, so 50 would become 35%, 40 would become 28, 30 woulod become 21, 15% would become 10 etc.)
so some options:
-leave him as is, because the massive ias bonuses gained from items will be lowered
-make him a str hero with agi as a highest stat, while str and int become around the same.

I'm curious as to how a Str. hero would look with Inteligence as his highest stat.

str: 20 + 1.8 <-
agi: 20 + 2.3
int: 18 + 2.1

how does that look?

Glycine wrote:
So does Fuegan have skills that complement DPS? I don't think so at all.

That's been my whole point. I mean, sure, the armor debuff kind of does, but ehhh...
Against REAL DPS characters (characters who have skills who do help them DPS), he will fall. He is like every other "Faux"-DPSer. However, he has huge burst damage and great survivability. He is set up to be a nuker who doesn't die, and on such heroes, there's really only two ways to go: Either more survivability or DPS to deal decent damage between nukes. Due to his old innate (still haven't seen the new one in action), he didn't really need added survivability, so DPS was the way to go on him.

and thenew innate gives survivability but its %'s instead of straight numbers, so its slightly less effective (cause blocking 65 damage owns towers and creeps, but blocking ~20% still takes damage from creeps)