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Changes to the way I release versions? (read the thread)

what remains to do in version .46? I_vote_lcap63%what remains to do in version .46? I_vote_rcap 63% [ 5 ]
what remains to do in version .46? I_vote_lcap38%what remains to do in version .46? I_vote_rcap 38% [ 3 ]

Total Votes : 8

Latest topics
» With everyone dead
what remains to do in version .46? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20, 2018 3:24 pm by DeusMechanicus

» Faction creeps
what remains to do in version .46? I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 21, 2014 12:49 am by Grass Hopper

» [SCII] [Inquisition] Hector Rex
what remains to do in version .46? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 18, 2014 9:06 am by Grass Hopper

» [necrons] Orikan, the Diviner
what remains to do in version .46? I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 16, 2014 5:58 pm by Grass Hopper

» Talent System
what remains to do in version .46? I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 15, 2014 10:59 am by Grass Hopper

» Capture Points system
what remains to do in version .46? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 12, 2014 2:36 pm by Grass Hopper

» [SCII] [Orks] Warboss(es)
what remains to do in version .46? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 12, 2014 11:44 am by Grass Hopper

» Game Guide
what remains to do in version .46? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 11, 2014 2:12 pm by Grass Hopper

» [Inquisition] Mordrak
what remains to do in version .46? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 10, 2014 3:28 pm by Grass Hopper

» [inquiition] Kaldor Draigo
what remains to do in version .46? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 10, 2014 3:07 pm by Grass Hopper

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what remains to do in version .46?

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Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:39 pm

I'm getting to the point where I'm comfortable with were yhe map is for this verssn. So I pose this question:

What *pressing* changes are still needed before I go into release candidates?

If nothing urgent remains, ill just need to finish the necrons icons and the loading screen

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Post by Glycine on Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:41 am

I could name one for each hero and a few for the items as a whole. But when time permits.

Fix the terrain some more, though.
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Post by cellrawr on Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:38 am

<_< Did you fix the god damn Chaplain lag? From Death Mask and from whatever the fuck Stern does to him?

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:56 pm

unless you suggest a different mechanic for death mask (ie. a flat aura or something) then i cant fix it.
and no, i havnt determined the cause of the chaplain lag. its difficult to test in single player, and taking out every skill one by one in a full game is a little limiting.
but i can do that.


and @gly:
give them to me, as long as the hero *desperatly needs it* from a *gameplay* point of view.
if you have something that ive already labled as a 'next version' change, a hero remake, or something that doesnt desperatly need fixing (pretty much conceptual or non-number changes) then thy can wait.

but all number changes and minor skill changes are good

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Post by cellrawr on Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:03 pm

Yea, it would be better to change it to an aura for now. Even though its boring, its a lot better than him not being able to go anywhere near a good gathering of creeps otherwise the games lags to fuck.

I'm still thinking its his spell shield doing it. If you need me to help test it on our own, just say so.

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:16 pm

well, it shouldnt be spell shield Razz cause no spells are cast on him during sanctuary, but what i plan on doing is removing one skill at a tiem and disabling all its code to see what is causing it

and it doesnt lag in single player... so i would need it to actually be in a game

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Post by cellrawr on Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:25 pm

<_< I don't know of anything else that would cause it. Its something whenever its cast right on top of him, cause i've walked into it from the oudside without problems.

<_< And which isn't lagging in single player?

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Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:28 pm

sanctuary, and ive casted it right on top of him too

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Post by Glycine on Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:31 am

What remains?

Well, you did something odd.

-Hold the line:
->gives 5/7/9/11 damage to creeps
->gives 10/20/30/40 damage to heroes
->damage goes away 3 seconds after issuing an order
-Medalion Crimson:
-The commissar can not take more than 10/9/8/7/6/5% of his max life in damage from a single source

I've already said I don't exactly agree with hold the line giving damage, but we'll see if your style of gradual reductions solves the problem. Why does it give damage to heroes? And why that much?

Though, that's not what raised my eyebrows. Did you even run the numbers on Crimson Medallion?

Level 1, 500 health, 50 damage.
Level 6, 800 health, 80 damage.
Level 25, 2700 health, 135 damage.

Ever happen to think of things called nukes? Or crits? or any kind of damage above 10-5%? The intention was good, but you tripped down a few flights of stairs in actuality. If it's doubled to 20-10, it might work, but that raises another problem.

You've coded a lot of nukes to do a lot of small amounts of damage, so they'll slip under this, but there are other nukes which do their damage in one chunk, and would then be nullified. Keeper of Secrets's hook, Bolt of Change, etc, etc. Fix medallion, please.

Standardize the way you do damage with nukes, please. I would prefer nukes actually nuke in one hit, such that Refraction Field isn't made completely useless by what it's supposed to block. In addition, when you code so many damage events, weird things can happen with plague armor or just lag people in general a la shockwave.




And to be honest, I'm not very comfortable at all with how the current version is. Too much is exploitable, too much is broken for it, to the point that it's laughable if we call this version a balance change.

- Leaver pods still work.
- Your -b commands aren't working completely or have prices wrong.
- Hireables are still shit, upgrades are pointless unless it's a long game.
- You need to warn people about the preloading. With a big message.
- I'm shocked you haven't implemented number nerfs on items. It's a balance version, yet thunder hammer, staff of tzeentch, warp gen, and power fist still retain their old numbers.
- Base outposts need at least 4 cannons. Again, not a hard fix. Or maybe you could actually make the towers machine guns. >>
- (some) creeps need to spawn from within the base to not only help people repush base outposts, but give the other team a change to level instead of being stonewalled for 20 minutes without any gold or experience to show for it.
- Why should it cost honor to repair towers? If your tower has been destroyed, you're losing, and yet you want to impose another restriction so that you lose the ability to buy what you need to compete with?
- The pathing is still an issue. (Thanks Faire!)
- Warn people a little better about Drop Pods scattering.
- Reduce the time for unstuck to 30-15 seconds.
- Again, summoners rape the shit out of the map. Fix it.
- Need more creep camps to support a neutral foresting option and -nc mode. Necrons should not be in a creep camp. >>;
- Either do something with your hero circles at spawn point or get rid of them. Have them contain items that we buy, or act as a kind of bank, or just something. We'll need room for more buildings/vendors.
- I forgot what your argument was against stat standardizing, something about how you just don't like it (which suspiciously sounds like an excuse you drop all the time), but take a look at attack speed, movement speed, and attack, and make sure things make sense.
- Take the fucking intelligence off of dragon's hold. No good can come of such a skill.


Last edited by Glycine on Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:45 am

On medalion: numbers are numbers. I had no intention of leaving them unwatched. Its nearly impossible to her them right the first time.
What looks good on paper might be completely off in game. And we won't know where its at untill we try it your numbers might be just as off as mine.
But to answer your question, no I did not actually run numbers. For the above reason. And I thought of it in terms of attacks, not real damage. It'll take at least 20 damage instances to kill him. Yes it did seem a but much, but I won't know for sure untill its played.

Also, didn't you think that its *supposed* to defend against nukes? Its what its meant to do.
He doesn't have much in the way of dps, so him staying Alive isn't game breaking.

Also, I have to stop you right away on your nuke issue, because of "I would prefer"
Multi damage instances have no real effect difference compared to single ones. They are affected positively and negatively by different things.

Also, ague and warboss waves don't have issues with multiple damage instances. Armor fails vs large numbers, and so does wave cause of the large numbers of timers on so many units. And the warboss lagga cause it creates so many units to her the animation.

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Post by Glycine on Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:58 am

Grass. I'm going to use your excuse.

I don't even need to know how this is going to play out, but I know it isn't anything good. For example, instead of Kharn taking, you know, 5 hits to kill a commissar at level 7, it now takes at least 10.

I know what it does, my point is that it's going to be ridiculously OP. You're giving a hero more survivability than he deserves, frankly. Vindi and Fuegan cannot reasonably expect to damage him in the current version, and anyone that crits is going to find themselves sorely disappointed.

Err, what? Oh, so what are those different things that affect multi-damage instances as compared to single ones? Did you contradict yourself just then? Is something not an issue if it fails? Do you want to perhaps not make them fail, such that they aren't an issue?
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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:11 am

Both multi and single damage nukes are affected by different things
For example, hard number reduction is better vs multi than it is against single, while max ho dependant triggers work on single better than they do multi.
Some evasion skills act more like damage reduction vs multi, and are either hit or miss vs single.
They are different types of damage, similar to the difference between magic, physical, pure, and mixed damage spells.
One is not better than the other. (well, pure is arguably better than phys or magic and mixed is arguably worse. And it would be possible to make a similar case for multi vs single, but in the end, they will exist)

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Post by Glycine on Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:17 am

Is there a particular reason some spells are multi-damage triggered? What was the rationale behind your decision?

Also, do take a look at my list of imbalances up a few posts.

That said, you didn't answer my question. Are you going to fix plague and shockwave?
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Post by 13loodRaven on Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:24 am

xD I say remove plague and give him a passive armour+aura.

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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:56 am

Plague is getting changes into an immo, so yes.
And warboss is getting a remake. So yes.

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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:24 am

- Leaver pods still work.
im still working on that

- Your -b commands aren't working completely or have prices wrong.
get me a list please

- Hireables are still shit, upgrades are pointless unless it's a long game.
see hireable thread (another version)

- You need to warn people about the preloading. With a big message.
(there is a warning, i cant help it if people dont read)

- I'm shocked you haven't implemented number nerfs on items. It's a balance version, yet thunder hammer, staff of tzeentch, warp gen, and power fist still retain their old numbers.
certain items have been nerfed. anything that can wait till next version will

- Base outposts need at least 4 cannons. Again, not a hard fix. Or maybe you could actually make the towers machine guns. >>
see outpost thread (another version)

- (some) creeps need to spawn from within the base to not only help people repush base outposts, but give the other team a change to level instead of being stonewalled for 20 minutes without any gold or experience to show for it.
this is planned for another version

- Why should it cost honor to repair towers? If your tower has been destroyed, you're losing, and yet you want to impose another restriction so that you lose the ability to buy what you need to compete with?
see honor change (another version)

- The pathing is still an issue. (Thanks Faire!)
still working on this

- Warn people a little better about Drop Pods scattering.
will do

- Reduce the time for unstuck to 30-15 seconds.
no (think about the wings' deep strike)

- Again, summoners rape the shit out of the map. Fix it.
give me a specific list of the summoners that 'rape the map'. Also, outpost change(another version) ((oh, and dont say cato))

- Need more creep camps to support a neutral foresting option and -nc mode. Necrons should not be in a creep camp. >>
; see neutral creep thread (another version)

- Either do something with your hero circles at spawn point or get rid of them. Have them contain items that we buy, or act as a kind of bank, or just something. We'll need room for more buildings/vendors.
atm, they are harming nothing. if i need the space, i can do something

- I forgot what your argument was against stat standardizing, something about how you just don't like it (which suspiciously sounds like an excuse you drop all the time), but take a look at attack speed, movement speed, and attack, and make sure things make sense.
if you have an issue with specific heroes, let me know. As far as i know, base stats are fine

- Take the fucking intelligence off of dragon's hold. No good can come of such a skill.
and give him the longest single target disable in the game for no cost?

alot of this really depends on how much time i have available for a single version.
thres no way in hell i can do all of this without causing a huge delay

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Post by Fairemont on Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:40 am

Im still waiting on fail buy to return my computer to me. =\

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Post by Glycine on Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:03 pm

Then I'll focus on a few key issues for you to address.

First off, swooping wings is no cure for an unstuck. Not everyone gets swoop, and to use it as a way to answer that query is unsound.

Leaver pods you can at least try to do this version.

Certain items:
- Purity Seals cost 55 gold, not 50 with -b
- witch blade costs 31500 gold to buy with -b what remains to do in version .46? Icon_razz
- Chapter banner costs 18500 gold to buy with -b

- All marks of chaos should cost 650, not 500 with -b
- eavy's name for -b is wrong, should be 'eavy.
- Spirit stone's actual cost is 1450, not 1400 with -b
- Armor of Ulthamar's actual cost is 4800, not 4350 with -b
- Aspect Armor's cost is 1200, not 1050 with -b
- Exarch Armor's cost is 2500, not 2350 with -b
- Phoenix Lord's Armor costs 4500, not 4400 with -b
- Hydraulic Suit costs 3750, not 3300 with -b
- Holo Suit costs 5850, not 5000 with -b
- Plague Armor costs 5550, not 5250 with -b
- Power Fist costs 4550, not 4450 with -b
- Dire sword costs 3950, not 2900 with -b
- Tyrant's Claw costs 5300, not 5350 with -b
- Animus costs 5100, not 5000 with -b
- Singing Spear costs 6050, not 5750 with -b
- Honor Blade costs 5900, not 4900 with -b
- Warp Icon costs 2510, not 2110 with -b
- Sensor Sweep costs 5700, not 5350 with -b
- Combat Drugs cost 3850, not 3350 with -b
- Termi Honors cost 3455, not 3550 with -b

Summoners: Aun'va, Void, Commissar, Necron Lord, Tomb Spyder, (Ahriman and Lord of Change, somewhat). Oh, and Cato, because that's funny.

Did it ever occur to you that you can lower the longest duration disable in the game? You know? Work another mechanic into it, like targets gain mana, which is lost over time as the dragon damages them or what not.
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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:55 pm

I meant unstuck would act as a free swooping hawk wings if you use it to get back home. It can't he shorter than walking cause them people would use that to get back to base.

Leaver pods I am trying to do.

Items ill go through and fix

Cato's getting a remake so that's why I said don't say him. Unless your talking about the remake, in which case... Fix it Razz
As to the others, ill look into them

Edit: and due to the nature of how the but system determins price, I can't make items with a 5 at the end cost the right price. I can prolly fix that if its even necessary (I mean 5 gold) by making the but command cost 5 more than it should.

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Post by Glycine on Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:47 pm

Just add 1 gold to the end-cost for a -b command, for those items.

For unstuck, why don't you then cut the time in half? 15 seconds are spent teleporting the hero, and it spends an additional 15-30 seconds in base unable to move. What's most important is that a hero doesn't die because of a stupid drop pod.
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Post by Fairemont on Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:17 pm

Just make a kill command that sacrifices all your money and adds one death, and subtracts all your level ups to return to base. Problem solved.

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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:38 pm

Price is determined by... Well I might have thought of something. But its so obvious... Oh nvm that's why.
Yeah, price is determined by 10*HP so I can only do multiples of 10 for the price.

As for unstuck. Ill need to think on the repercussions of that, but it promised to he a good compromise.

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Post by cellrawr on Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:40 pm

<_< Waitwut. COMPROMISE? BETWEEN YOU TWO?

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Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:43 pm

Oh shut up cell Razz
I'm perfectly reasonable when the ideas are pretty much great >.>
Gly's got tones of stuff in without me arguing issues over them Razz

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what remains to do in version .46? Empty Re: what remains to do in version .46?

Post by Glycine on Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:45 am

And when the idea is just "great," all hell is raised over this, and that, and lots of stuff that makes me go gaaaaah.



It's funny how you snuck Crimson Medallion into the map without consulting Cell, me, or really anyone about it. It would help if the exchange was two-way, or perhaps I missed a conversation between you two.

When the ideas plainly aren't all that great, I'm not very reasonable at all. Perhaps let me give you one example.

At level 7, with level 1 innate, Commie has about 800 health. That means he can't take more than 80 damage from a single blow. Exactly how many nukes does that cancel out/reduce heavily?

Cato's nades and ult, Sigi's Charge, Stern's Nemesis, all of Vindi's attacks, Rakel's lightning bolt and strip soul, farseer's mind war, Autarch's eye, Avatar's Wailing Doom, all of harlequin's spells, Fuegan's nukes, Asurmen and Karandras's Crits, Pathfinder's missiles, Mad Dok's heal and ult, Warphead's zzap, Snikrot's crits, Kharn's charge and crits, Angg'rath's spells, Zarakynel's hook, Fateweaver's bolt, Flayed One's burrowstrike, Fex's charge, and Lelith's spells.

You're reducing all of these damage events to 80 damage, when the average damage amount is 200-300. In other words, ARE YOU FUCKING INSANE!? You can use the excuse that you want to test this concept out, but didn't it ever occur to you that it might just be a little powerful? Just a little?

The thing about reducing these kinds of blows is that Commie can run with impunity, seeing as any kind of nuke or killing spell will only ever do 10-5% of his health at all times. For example, if he has 800 health, and Fuegan decides to ult-pike him, you go from having suffered about 450-500 total net damage to 160 damage. Epic, epic, FAIL.

The problem isn't a number issue. It's a conceptual issue, which is why I'm hammering at this. Say it's up'd to 20-10%. So it'll now take 5 damage events total to kill him at level 1. The thing is, 20% of 800 is still 160 damage, which means you suffer the same problem with most of the nukes and spells I listed above.

It's the amount of damage reduction this system gives that is troubling me. You are reducing all damage by 50-75%, under the facade of a health limit.

I acknowledge it's supposed to defend against nukes; your implementation is the problem. It's too broad of a range, and if you try and limit it to damage amounts, you have a copy of Fuegan's innate, except more/less OP.
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what remains to do in version .46? Empty Re: what remains to do in version .46?

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