Random 40k Fluff

Hmmm.. I've been reading alot of Dark Angels fluff, and I've come to the conclusion that Lion El'Jonson, not Luther, betrayed the Imperium. I don't think Chaos had anything to do with Jonson's betrayal though (though it could still be responsible for Luther's, in a round-a-bout way). All Astelan's paranoia aside, I think he was onto something when he repented upon the Rock (well, tried to repent, but by doing so was branded a Heretic). It would explain the Dark Angel's constant crusade for redemption- the taint wasn't just on their brothers for infighting, but on their father (Primarch Lion). Atleast in the last Dark Angels book I read Boreas, the Inquisitor, thought either Luther or Astelan had acted in the interest of the Imperium. He sent the transmission to a prison cell within the Rock with the words, "You were right." The only prisoners really mentioned in solitary in that part of the Rock were Luther and Astelan. As for the Terran Sorcerer's on Caliban performing the dark rituals ... I think Luther was duped just like Horus was. Anyway, back to Lion's betrayal... Chaos had nothing to do with it, he had just become self-absorbed and concerned with how his Legion looked, that he took his time reaching Terra to find out who had won the battle then decide with whom to throw in his lot, as Astelan told Boreas. He was being oportunistic, which is sort of supported by other Horus Heresy books. Then again, Astelan admits communications were cut during the Heresy, and he has no real way of knowing if Lion did not do everything he could to reach Terra in time. It's an old arguement, I know. I don't know if they have released any recent material that clears this matter up... but, just my thoughts.

I have come to a realization, I have come to know the origins of the Grey Knights, and prepare to be shocked. Grey Knights are descendants from Death Guard and Luna Wolves (Black Legion now). During the Heresy, a few of these men from this legion fled from their parent legion to give news to the Emperor. Upon reaching Terra, they were imprisoned upon Luna (The bastion of the Silent Sisters, early witch hunters). They were attacked by a demon from the Lord of Decay. They defeated the beast. The council suddenly saw at that moment, that the warp is very much a threat, so they looked for warriors to combat the beast that come from the either. Who better to combat this threat then men from fallen legions seeking redemption? They became known as the Grey Knights because of early armor worn by Death Guard at the time, a gunmetal grey (Mortarion believed war was ugly so why bedeck armor?). Thus the Grey Knights were formed.

o.o where did u find that?

(and moved to 40kTT general )

It's in the Black Library's Horus Heresy novels. I don't think there were any Luna Wolves though, I thought all the loyalists from Horus' legion were destroyed on Isstvan (including Loken, the most badass WH40k character ever). I know that atleast one or two loyalists from the Death Guard (Garro and his crew), escaped, Garro shot down his own Legion's fighters to let Tarvitz (okay, so maybe Loken is the 2nd most badass character in WH40k - Tarvitz was a beast) warn the loyalists on Isstvan of Horus' betrayal and then escaped to warn Terra, but ended up running into the Imperial Fists and Dorn. There was a really cool quote at the end of one of the books about what might have happened to the loyalists who escaped Isstvan, "The Imperium requires men and women of inquisitive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos...a duty to vigilance". I'm not sure about if they formed the Grey Knights (though their armor does somewhat resemble that of the Death Guard's). Most of the rumors about the Grey Knights I've heard say that the Grey Knights use the Emperor's gene-seed, thus why they're innately adept at destroying daemons / combating the warp.

Edit: Speaking of Imperial Fists / Dorn, I wouldn't want to be Garro when he told Dorn that Horus and several of the other Primarchs were betraying the Emperor. Dorn wasn't a nice guy when he was in a good mood, imagine his reaction when someone told him his brothers were conspiring against their father. Screw being in a different room, I'd like to be on a different ship ... preferably on the other side of the galaxy. Garro is lucky Dorn didn't tear him limb from limb.

No, the "Half Heard" made it out, and I believe they made the Grey Knights and covered up by saying their Gene Seed came from the Emperor to hide the truth that they actually come from a traitor legion. I mean, put yourself in that position, your a council member and you have to decide the fate of some thirty - forty marines why not put them to work? Garro defeated The Fly Lord, proving that they can go toe to toe with the beast. But, if the truth was heard that they descended from a legion that betrayed the universe, the backlash would see the Imperium tear itself apart.

They also have the ability to make new gene seed (though it is a pain in the ass), so they also have the ability to make it something more. Plus its a Grey Knights training that makes him so effective against the Daemon, not his gene seed.

Oh yeah, I forgot that he made it. Saved the whiney assed remembrancers and whatnot... Who was that Dreadnought that Loken (I think it was Loken anyway) was talking to during the Battle of Isstvan III? Anyway, I'm pretty sure you can't create "new" gene-seeds, they're grown within each Marine and then taken out to create implants for other marines. But that's the only way they replicate, which is why if a gene-seed becomes tainted / mutated, an entire Chapter can be wiped out. As for the Grey Knights, I doubt the population of the Imperium is privy to alot of things about the Astartes and the Inquistion, but I don't think it'd really matter if they were from a Traitor Legion, the Emperor forgave them (well, sort of). And gene-seed would play a big part in battle prowess - look at what the Primarch's gene-seed did to the first men, turning them into Space Marines, imagine what the Emperor's gene-seed would do to a man.

Huron Fal or something like that, and it was a death guard dreadnought, and that's the thing, there's no way it could have come from the emperor, for they would have SERIOUS phycic potential. Because the Emperor is the light in the warp, so his descendants would be torches as well, but Grey Knights barely register in the warp.

But they do have serious psychic potential. All Grey Knights are extremely powerful psykers, and since Garrow wasn't a psyker, he couldn't have become a Grey Knight. The fact that they are so pure and powerful also lend credence to the theory that they have the Emperor's gene.

No, if you actually research into the Grey Knights, they have only some phychic potential and few actually have destructive powers. They use a small amount of phychic ability just to shield their minds.

ChangerOfWays wrote:No, if you actually research into the Grey Knights, they have only some phychic potential and few actually have destructive powers. They use a small amount of phychic ability just to shield their minds.

Just wondering, where do you get your info? I use the Lexicanum, and it says:

Considering the role of the Grey Knights, potential recruits are put through even more stringent trials than other Space Marine Neophytes. Unlike most Space Marine Chapters, the Grey Knight recruits are drawn directly from the Black Ships after they return to Terra they are then brought to Titan for testing.*7 The most advanced bio-engineering and psycho-surgery available is utilised to condition the Neophytes, and each recruit must pass the six hundred and sixty six Rituals of Detestation, to prove that he is capable of withstanding horrors that would break even the greatest of 'normal' Space Marines. Upon success, the recruit also has the majority of their memories and personality erased1, to better ensure their absolute and unwavering loyalty to the Emperor. One of the main criteria for selection is that the recruit must show great psychic potential, as the entire Chapter is made up of psykers. Once accepted into the chapter and undergoing the standard process to transform into a member of the Adeptus Astartes, the new Grey Knight is also implanted with silver purity wards under his skin which cover his entire body.

Huh, guess i am wrong then.

But, this also proves something, if they phycic already, then a gene seed from the emperor would make them INSANELY phycic, and their not.

A gene-seed cannot make someone a Psyker, or improve a Psyker's ability. It improves their physical form and facilitates the integration of the implanted organs, turning them from a Man into an Astartes. If gene-seed created Psykers then entire Chapters would be nothing but Psykers. Blood Ravens, for example. They recruit alot of Librarians (Psykers), but not everyone in their Chapter is a Psyker, yet they all have the same gene-seed. A Psyker must be born, not made. Why do you think the Imperium imports millions of Psykers to Terra to feed to the Astronomicon? If they could make them, they wouldn't need to scour planets across the galaxy for them. And if a gene-seed COULD make you a Psyker, then it would be reasonable to assume Garro did infact become the first Grey Knight as he could have been implanted with the Emperor's gene-seed and had his implants augmented - but, it can't happen, so he can't have been the first Grey Knight. He probably became the first Inquisitor or something along those lines. Searching for traitors, not daemons.

Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that the Space Marine theme song is ... Disturbed's "Indestructible".

Lol :p ya that could be their song.

DeusMechanicus wrote:It's in the Black Library's Horus Heresy novels. I don't think there were any Luna Wolves though, I thought all the loyalists from Horus' legion were destroyed on Isstvan (including Loken, the most badass WH40k character ever). I know that atleast one or two loyalists from the Death Guard (Garro and his crew), escaped, Garro shot down his own Legion's fighters to let Tarvitz (okay, so maybe Loken is the 2nd most badass character in WH40k - Tarvitz was a beast) warn the loyalists on Isstvan of Horus' betrayal and then escaped to warn Terra, but ended up running into the Imperial Fists and Dorn. There was a really cool quote at the end of one of the books about what might have happened to the loyalists who escaped Isstvan, "The Imperium requires men and women of inquisitive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos...a duty to vigilance". I'm not sure about if they formed the Grey Knights (though their armor does somewhat resemble that of the Death Guard's). Most of the rumors about the Grey Knights I've heard say that the Grey Knights use the Emperor's gene-seed, thus why they're innately adept at destroying daemons / combating the warp.

Edit: Speaking of Imperial Fists / Dorn, I wouldn't want to be Garro when he told Dorn that Horus and several of the other Primarchs were betraying the Emperor. Dorn wasn't a nice guy when he was in a good mood, imagine his reaction when someone told him his brothers were conspiring against their father. Screw being in a different room, I'd like to be on a different ship ... preferably on the other side of the galaxy. Garro is lucky Dorn didn't tear him limb from limb.

i thought tarvits ended up forming the inquisition lol it does say inquisitive

tarvitz dies doesnt he? on istavann?

Thats what they say, but I'm not sure any of them are dead. I think that they're still on Istvaan, waiting for the endtimes to come back.

They made Horus pay dearly in his attempt to kill them, and probably would have held out longer if it wasn't for Lucius being a selfish bastard. But, Horus bombarded Isstvan III to rubble before leaving for V to set his trap. Isstvan III is now classified as a "Dead World" because of it. So unless they're ghosts, Tarvitz, Loken, and the rest are gone forever.

Anyway, Nathaniel Garro could have (and most likely did) become the first Inquisitor, but certainly wasn't a Grey Knight.

DeusMechanicus wrote:They made Horus pay dearly in his attempt to kill them, and probably would have held out longer if it wasn't for Lucius being a selfish bastard. But, Horus bombarded Isstvan III to rubble before leaving for V to set his trap. Isstvan III is now classified as a "Dead World" because of it. So unless they're ghosts, Tarvitz, Loken, and the rest are gone forever.

Well, I read something somewhere that there was a underground hangar someplace, where they could survive, but could not fly out because of the rubble above them. Besides, there is always a way to bring a character back. "Gavriel, Tarvits, and the rest of the loyalist marines were found in giant food stasis boxes, where they will be found before the end times."

Abut the Dark Angels Deus, I think I disagree. Chaos did permeate Lion, aswell as Luther. They both used the library, within were grimoires to controlling chaos. Luther even tried to bind a demon. Lion was also in the Northwilds untill found by Luther, by then he was a small boy, long enough time to be atleast familiar with Chaos on a basic level, for the Northwilds were home to the greatest taint on Caliban. In the end, Lion might not have been fully turned by chaos, and yes he was an opportunistic primarch, and actually wanted Warmaster title after Horus was defeated. He didn't take but in the grander scheme of things, maybe to support either side that won. But, chaos was present in one if not both. How else would you explain the warp storm appearing on Caliban? Both Luther and Lion were badly wounded, and the Gods of Chaos sent the storm because their servants lost, but it doesnt specify who their servant was, so idk if we can draw conclusions.

ChangerOfWays wrote:Abut the Dark Angels Deus, I think I disagree. Chaos did permeate Lion, aswell as Luther. They both used the library, within were grimoires to controlling chaos. Luther even tried to bind a demon. Lion was also in the Northwilds untill found by Luther, by then he was a small boy, long enough time to be atleast familiar with Chaos on a basic level, for the Northwilds were home to the greatest taint on Caliban. In the end, Lion might not have been fully turned by chaos, and yes he was an opportunistic primarch, and actually wanted Warmaster title after Horus was defeated. He didn't take but in the grander scheme of things, maybe to support either side that won. But, chaos was present in one if not both. How else would you explain the warp storm appearing on Caliban? Both Luther and Lion were badly wounded, and the Gods of Chaos sent the storm because their servants lost, but it doesnt specify who their servant was, so idk if we can draw conclusions.

I think the fellow making this suggestion hadn't read the two Dark Angels Horus Heresy novels. Also, everyone agree that Zahariel is Cypher, yesyes?

No, in the horus heresy novels, you come to learn Chyper is the last surviving Knight of Lupus. And I did read them, plus drew some conclusions from Lexicanium

ChangerOfWays wrote:No, in the horus heresy novels, you come to learn Chyper is the last surviving Knight of Lupus. And I did read them, plus drew some conclusions from Lexicanium

I meant the 'Deus' fellow hadn't read them.

Also, I think the new 'Cypher' in the second book dies, and Zahariel takes the mantle. Because he -is- the main character, and something important has to happen to him.

I've read "Descent of Angels", "Angels of Darkness", "Fallen Angels" and the "Tales of Heresy" shorts, and I still believe Lion wasn't serving the best interests of the Imperium, but doing what was in the best interest for him. Guess we'll just have to wait until they revisit the legion / chapter. Anyway, can't wait for "Thousand Sons" and "Prospero Burns".

No, cause the Chypher now isn't phycic. Plus, in the book he has his trade mark plasma pistol and bolt pistol.

I still think Lion was tainted by chaos, he just didnt use it. He knew chaos, cause he spent time in the Northwilds, where the taint was greatest.

Luther was definitely corrupt, for he used chaos. He thought that he could use chaos to his advantage, but he became an unwilling pawn to them.