Thousand Sons ... Loyalists?

Are the Thousand Sons really traitors? Or is it just Magnus?

Before Magnus' arrival, the Thousand Sons were under constant threat of mutation from their psychic powers. It must've been a massive betrayal when their Saviour delivered them right back into the hands of the Changer of Ways. They, and their Primarch, were hardcore loyalists (Magnus tried to warn the Emperor multiple times of his visions of Horus' betrayal, see "Prospero Burns") until Russ showed up on Prospero's doorstep with Horus' orders to exterminate the legion. Even after their flight into the Eye of Terror, Ahzek Ahriman, Chief Librarian and Magister Templi of the Corvidae cult (note each cult was ruled by Magus and Ipissimus - Magnus and the Emperor, who they saw as the 'perfect human'), refused to acknowledge Chaos as his master. The Rubric of Ahriman ended the mutations of Tzeentch and trapped the souls of those without psychic potential within their own armor - denying Chaos domination over them. Supposedly Ahriman is now on a quest to uncover the secrets of Tzeentch ... but to what end? Free Magnus from his daemonic ascension? Restore and transport the Legion out of Chaos' clutches? Or even a coup?

Doubt it. Although Magnus doesnt want to be a Daemon, i dont think he cares at this point, or if he does, it doesnt show.

Firstly, Tzneetch is as close to Omnipotent as it is possible for a chaos god to be. Ahriman is alive because Tzneetch chose for him to be, not because he is secretly working for magnus.

Magnus, while trying to stop Horus's fall, has his own faults, and he knew the devil's bargain he made to save his legion from annihilation at the hand of Leman's wolves. He might not be happy with the cost he has, and is paying, but at least he has immortality and nearly ultimate power to console himself with in the intern.

I was saying Magnus was the only one loyal to Chaos, the rest of his legion isn't..

Magnus was outraged when he discovered what Ahriman was trying to do with the Rubric.

Actually... He was pissed because it destroyed most of his legion, reducing most of them to piles of ash.

Thats specifically what it says in all the novels and the fluff. Hes pissed not because it halted mutation, but because it basically killed anyone who wasnt a powerful sorcerer in his legion.

Their bodies were destroyed, but their spirits were trapped inside their armor - unable to be used as pawns by Tzeentch, or any of the other Chaos Gods...

Anyway, once again, this is inconsequential to the original argument..

XD I have that effect on discussions.

DeusMechanicus wrote:Their bodies were destroyed, but their spirits were trapped inside their armor - unable to be used as pawns by Tzeentch, or any of the other Chaos Gods...

Anyway, once again, this is inconsequential to the original argument..

It's rather like they are automatons being lead by the sorcerers, rather then having free will and the like.

As for now..I think they've all lost it, the powers of the warp tainting them black by now.

Well... The majority of the Thousand Sons Legion aren't capable of being traitors now but, yeah, I believe it was Magnus' fault. A normal Space Marine would choose death over disobeying their primarch.

As far as I know, Ahriman and his close group of sorcerors (the fellas who helped cast the rubric) are still within the eye of terror, seeking magic and arcane artifacts. And we all know Ahriman really wants in on the Eldar's Black Library. Perhaps with the knowledge gained from such a journey, he can reverse the damage done by the Rubric, and keep the Legion free from the clutches of Tzeench. Or thats what Tzeench wants Ahriman to believe, for it is most likely Ahriman is yet another pawn of Tzeench. The shit would really hit the fan if Tzeench gained access to the Black Library through Ahriman...

Ummm... Everything in the Black Library Tzeentch already knows. The Black Library contains all the Eldar's studies of Chaos, including recovered Chaos artefacts (such as a copy of the Book of Magnus). But it does not contain anything a Chaos God does not already know ... considering the knowledge in the library is about them. About the promises and perils, the temptations and torments, et cetera. Tzeentch would not want Ahriman gaining access to such information - it could, arguably, contain information that would allow him to attain godhood himself. Or destroy them. You might ask yourself, "If Chaos can be destroyed, why don't the Eldar?", perhaps it's overlooked ... perhaps you need to experience (such as the taint of Chaos) to understand. And, anyway, it was Magnus that banished Ahriman to forever seek insight into the webs of Tzeentch. As far as he knows, he gave him a fool's errand - no one has ever gained knowledge on Tzeentch that Tzeentch did not wish them to know ... yet. I think it's safe to assume Ahriman will eventually achieve access to the Black Library (he's already come terrifyingly close). So, the question is, what will he do with the knowledge he gains? Will he save the Imperium from its own corruption, or destroy everything and seek a place amongst the pantheon of Chaos? This quote (see below) kind of makes me lean towards the first - although what shape the Imperium would take is ... uncertain. I assume it'd go somewhat along the lines of Ahriman declaring himself the new Emperor of Mankind. But with his sorcery, maybe he could bring around the revival of the true Emperor? The fell powers of Chaos can be quite potent. And it'd be the ultimate irony, the powers of Chaos reviving the Emperor of Mankind and saving the Imperium. Though that raises another question - if the Emperor does come back, what's he going to do when he finds out countless worship him as a god? The idea of which he sought to destroy.

"And what are the achievements of your fragile Imperium? It is a corpse rotting slowly from within while maggots writhe in its belly. It was built with the toil of heroes and giants, and now it is inhabited by frightened weaklings to whom the glories of those times are half-forgotten legends. I have forgotten nothing, and my wisdom has expanded far beyond mere mortal frailties."

The Eldar have probably realised that to read texts of Chaos, one would be turned insane and corrupt, or to already be both to even comprehend the literature stored there. Alas, who knows what Ahriman is capable of. Perhaps (if and when) he gains access to the Library, as a disciple of change, be able to hide the most minute piece of information from Tzeench? As you said before, Magnus the Red was the one who willingly embraced Chaos, not Ahriman. Ahriman most likely took advantage of that to educate and empower himself further. He does not care for where knowledge comes from, he just wishes to attain it. This quote from Ahriman; "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." Proves just that... As for the Emperor.. If he was to regain his physical form through Ahriman, would and could Ahriman use the Rubric on the Emperor? *shudders*... Or will the two of them, to put it lightly, have a little bout of fisticuffs? An omnipotent godling-sorceror against the most powerfull (and currently regenerated) psyker in existance... Would most probably rip a huge tear in the fabric of reality allowing doom, death, and daemons to spill through. Perhaps this one of Tzeench's greater plots? We will just have to wait and find out...

13loodRaven wrote:A normal Space Marine would choose death over disobeying their primarch.

Not really. A lot of Space Marines were unwilling to follow their Primarchs into Chaos (see Virus Bombing of Isstvan III). Hell, on Isstvan III, Space Marines of the World Eaters even fought against Angron, their Primarch, when he attempted to finish the Loyalists off. Captain Ehrlen went out like a man, leading the Loyalist World Eaters charging straight into melee combat with Angron and the Traitors he brought with him.

Unwilling, true. But didn't SM's truly, adore and love thier primarch?

Well i hate to say it...But the only REALLLLLYYYYY loyal chapter is the Grey Knights...

Second is the Black Templar.

The others all have... other ideas then just the imperium.

I don't really include the Grey Knights in with "Space Marines" ... they're special.

The Exorcists are extremely loyal too, because of they go through the same process as Illuminati to resist the taint of Chaos (96:1 kill/death ratio on a Daemon World, I believe). There's rumors they come from the Grey Knights though, and I guess "Daemon Possession Therapy" doesn't fall under "normal Space Marines" either.

I mean, honestly... Every legion/chapter has had it's own agenda for millenia...

I mean, Dark angels dont give a hoot about the imperium, to them its all the hunt for the fallen.

Blood angels are looking for a way to control their black rage

Ultramarines are loyal though...

And Black templar...