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Total Votes : 8

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» Faction creeps
Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:49 am by Grass Hopper

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» [inquisitoin] Brother-captain Stern
Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:37 pm by Grass Hopper

Version Progress
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Fuck. This. Shit.

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Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Mortis on Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:28 pm

Grass. You ask us for advice and opinions on how to make the map better. Every. Single. Time. Someone i see approaches you about an issue, unless its something you have already decided on, You either ignore it, stall, or blow it off with lamed brained excuses. I dont care that it doesnt fit into your current coding ideas, or your current desires. Polish is what makes a map. Not new features, not new items, POLISH. Whats the point in lame brained excuses on why something works the way it does? Every single time I, or anyone else i have seen, has told you about balance or polish, you blow it off/ignore it unless its something your actively working on. A map NEEDS polish, and the new features and remakes, DONT MAKE IT POLISHED. For every thing we add, new idiosyncrasies pop up. Pathing still isnt fixed, and the map is glitched all to hell, fataling out half the time late game when ults start stacking.

When We try to address a concern to you, dont reply 'Thats not what we are testing for'. Map development requires getting as much right as possible, and letting all these little details go by the way side is hurting the map overall. the other day i asked a friend to play it with me, and he told me this. "Too slow, difficult to understand, unbalanced, and not worth the 20 minute wait to get going.' You want to make a map that people line up for. You want a map that appeals to people. I joined the map for the fluff, but i was told game play trumps fluff. FINE. Then Let it STAY trumping fluff. ideas and concepts should MAKE SENSE to someone who reads them, and be readily understood. The map will never grow unless people are willing to play it out. EVER SINGLE GAME people leave, because it's boring, makes no sense, or is difficult to understand. People dont like random loop holes in rules that knock people out of magical immunity. People dont like a less then one second cool down for blink. People dont like picking strange new heros and then having their abilities not make sense. We have a HUGE BATTERY of items that are overly complicated in requiring several recipes in order to work. This should not be necessary. All of these things turn people off, and i cant even force my good friends to play this map anymore because of it's complete lack of balance and polish.

We need to polish what we have, and make everything RIGHT. We need all the abilities to make sense, and have the TOOL TIPS MATCH THE EFFECTs that are listed. We need to work together to come up with abilities and ideas that are both fun, and worthwhile to play. We shouldnt have to rule lawyer discussions on what makes a trigger work a certain way. An ability that is already nerfed and limited shouldnt have secondary ways to circumvent it. Abilities need to be balanced to keep people interested, and so as to not limit the number and variety of heros that we see. Allready, i see the exact same couple heros played every single game, and this is a fatal flaw.

I know im ranting, but Grass, you really fucking pissed me off.

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Fairemont on Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:23 am

Mortis, do you realize how much work it is for one person to make a map? Probably not. So, don't get too mad at him. He's doing his best. It's not like he's being paid to do this, he does it out of his own free will, taking up his free time, because he enjoys it, or maybe he doesn't, and he just feels obligated to do it, so be happy that he even gives a damn what you think. Kay?

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Mortis on Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:54 am

Im sick and tired of you following my threads around to bitch about everything i do, and im sick of Glyc defending you. The only crap you do is fucked up, Such as the damn terrain with now screwed up pathing. FUCK OFF MY THREADS. I dont give a shit about your sensibilities, and i dont give a shit about YOUR opinions. Stay out of my threads, PERIOD. FUCK OFF.

Ps. Your computer is broken, yet you find the time to constantly be on the forums? Fishy....
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Glycine on Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:51 am

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE.

That said, I too sometimes tap into that well of discontent. I'm just tired of pubstomping every single game I play. I would like the recipes to make some sort of sense, but that would require a very large project to implement, and we always seem to be lacking people who would contribute ideas.

Indeed, the essence of a beta is that new things will have to be added to rebalance or readjust gameplay, and those new things create problems in themselves. I cannot agree with the current balance scheme of heroes, because it's too easy to enter easy mode with any hero.

Every single hero has an imbalanced skill, no matter what way you cut it, and it's not exactly nice to use your advantage over people who have no idea what they're doing. A few weeks ago, when we were testing, and we 4 vs another 2, I was utterly infuriated that you decided to go ahead and stomp them anyway, instead of getting their feedback, trying to help them learn the map, and making it generally fun. Not to mention you and Mortis had Necron Lord and were being merciless...

The point of the map is to have fun, not to beat the shit out of dlpubbies who have no idea what they're doing. Until random nubs can understand the mechanics, know that their tooltips are correct, and stay for the majority of the game, I don't see anything happening. It's not our job to cater to idiots, but if people want to try and understand the game, it's our job to facilitate their learning.

As for the bitchfest between you and Faire, Mort, that's enough. Either take your discussion to a private chat or find a compromise such that the two of you can talk to each other in at least a détente. If I didn't know better, I'd think the two of you were trying to court each other in some hate-filled love ritual. I also defend you, Mort, whenever Grass/Cell/whoever decides to talk shit about you, so it goes both ways.

And this is where I ask you, Mortis/Faire/whoever gives a fuck at this point, to implement your ideas.

What kind of polish are you suggesting? How do we deal with recipes? How do we make the game go faster? etc, etc, etc. You asked a lot of questions, but do you have an answer to them?
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by ZebioLizard on Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:53 am

Make the map red, it'll go faster.

Anyways, now that I'm back I'm seeing alot of..well, bitterness as I read. Holy crap, but yeah, someone send me things that need polish, i'll giv e some idea's, given up on hero makin for now.
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by 13loodRaven on Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:40 am

As a whole, a late tier item shouldn't take around three seperate early recepies to create it, take Raven Talons for example, or items that require a full inventory to make. Also, having a full inventory and buying a recepie should work too.

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Glycine on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:57 am

Items: Recipes should complete items in a full inventory. Also, you talk of finding a balance between must have and not so much, but do you have a plan for doing so?

Attitude: Please, please, please don't fuck with pubbies. Treat them fairly. Please implement an in-game switch function so that teams can be more or less balanced in the case of inevitable leavers.

Heroes:

Hero balance as is now is unacceptable, period. Too many things we have brought up, and too many things you ignore. I'll give you credit that a lot of stuff has been done, and I'm glad, but it goes either nowhere far enough or too far in the wrong direction.

I'm not entirely sure why you are content to quick-rig fixes when you know we're going to whore about them for an entire version, wondering why didn't you fix this when you started in the first place.

Runt Herd's Prod, Rakel's Lightning Arc, Warboss's Shockwave, Typhus's Winds, Lelith's Hold, Lucius's ult, Mad Dok's insane cd's, Warphead's Zap, innate, and ult, Carnifex's 5k health end-game and acid blood, Zoey's insane tankiness, Necron Lord (All of him, pretty much), Big Mek's Mana burn, Cato (all of him), Stern's bubble that needs to be more permeable, getting stats from skills, Libby's fail Veil of Time, Sigis's Charge that fails when it hits an allied unit, Armor aura (It didn't need to be buffed >>), Celestine's AoE on the Flames, Vindi's total fail in the first half hour of a game, Yriel (Once he gets a crit, game over, no way ever to counter the ult late game), Fuegan is still a tank, Karandras still has biting blade, Asurmen's bladestorm hasn't been nerfed, aun'va is still ridiculous, as is Kharn, and that's just touching the surface of all that is wrong with heroes.

So now what?
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:56 pm

first off, wrong section Razz but ill forgive you.
Coments/concerns is for site specific stuff only.

PRETEXT: all caps lock means the same as **. its used for emphasis, not cause im yelling

info:
Spoiler:
as to just help people with the source of this rant (it always helps to get background info):
mortis was playing as Grey Knight, using his ult, and was able to be knocked back by Commi's UlT which would cancel the channeling.
he says knockback from spells should be blocked, but knockback as an effect ignores magic imunity (as well as many other hardcoded wc3 effects, i.e. Ensnare)


lets start adressing individual points:

@mortis:
-I have notepad open while i play, and any concerns that people come to me with get written down. Every. Single. One. unless its obviously not needed (im sure you agree that if someone comes to me saying autarch is crap and needs to be buffed, i wont include that)
so yes, i DO listen to what you guys say. EVEN if i argue against you, i STILL right it down. Discussion provokes thought and change, and more often than not i find an improved or different and better way to fix the issue.

-Polish: *any* non-content change is polish. so anything balance or numbers is polish on the map.
concerning map development, a major version update works beast and takes the least time when its ONE of the following: content or balance.
I CANT DO BOTH RELIABLY
and a major reworking of 10+ heroes is definatly a content patch. Its a content patch designed to aid balancing in future versions by removing or reworking poor heroes, but its still a content patch.
note:
Spoiler:
im trying to keep points that adresss the cause of this post away from the general answers to your post, so ill put this here.

making magic imune units not affected by knockback is a BIG change that cant be implemented this version due to its been too fucking long and this needs to be finished.
Also, knockback is much like net, so it doesnt need it anyway.

-"Thats not what were testing":
The POINT of any specific game is to test certain things that could potentially be a problem in the future (bugs or balance issues mainly)
HOWEVER, if an issue pops up in a game, i wont jsut ignore it if its not what were testing specifically
Spoiler:
IIRC, you said that after you realised knockback disables your ult, and when i said that was intended, youo said something like "so why are we testing", and i responded with the above quote.

The POINT of that specific game was to test the Grey Knight and Chaplain interaction lag, and the power of Commissar's new innate, and the power of the Autarch
HOWEVER, if an issue pops up in a game, i wont jsut ignore it if its not what were testing specifically.
the problem comes here that you think that magic imunity should block knockback, when it shouldnt. Its not that im refusing to test a bug/balance issue, but its that there isnt one to test.

just btw, if gly is looking at this Razz
on paper, the innate seems powerful, but IN PRACTICE, its not gamebreaking.
in the game i played as commie, it didnt trigger once, and in the other game, no one complained. but to be fair i didnt really pay close attention (cause i was busy arguing with mortis >.>)
and the autarch is VERY powerful, cause his own dps can take advantage of the effects of his ult.
i have a few options to fix this by limiting his dps potential (by alot) while keeping the effects on the ult

-"too slow" etc till end of paragraph:
Its an aos. ALL aos' have a steep learning curve. Most first time downloaders WILL NOT GET IT.
being an ex-dota player, and the creater of this, and being very well experienced and learned in both games, I STILL FIND NEW AOS' CNFUSING.
that is a property of aos's that WILL NOT CHANGE.
i do as much as i can to help the new players with the info items at the start.
theres also gameplay info and tips in the quest menu.
and leavers exist in every game. Its an online mentality that seems to be brought out in these types of games. You die, your losing, your quit.
There are leavers in every Aos game ive played. ALWAYS.
and for items specifically: there are very few items that require a full or near-to-full inventory to combine (staff and warp icon come to mind).
and no, i cannot easily make items combine with a full inventory. This would require a FULL remake of how items are bought and the recipe system. I cannot do this cause i did not make the item system.
Spoiler:
as to the the spcific points:
im not going to go over knockback vs spell imunity
and the warp jump generator was bugged on heroes that can switch modes, this was a BUG, and is FIXED now.
and as to your issue with WJG from a few games ago: I tested it out in single player (As much as i can) and got it on two units (my hero and my squig) and it worked fine.
so the best way for you to get me to fix the error that happened to you (3x long cooldown) is to reproduce it. i CANT fix it if i dont know whats wrong.
/Mortis

JUST A SIDE NOTE:
when people come at me with bugs and issues to fix. I NEED YOU TO BE ABLE TO REPRODUCE IT.
I CANNOT FIX IT IF I DONT KNOW WHATS WRONG, and the easiest way for me to figure out whats wrong is for you to be able to reproduce it and be able to walk me through how you did it.

@gly:
thank you for pointing this out.
so many people demand change, but offer nothing in the way of solutions.
(i know im guilty of this as well, but im not perfect either
and usually i try >.>)

as to quick-fixes:
as long as something isnt game breaking, or imbalanced (in the over-powered sense), im content to let it lie, PROVIDED THAT ITS GETTING CHANGED IN THE NEXT VERSION.
if a hero (like rakel) has a ridiculous skill (lightning arc - 2 second cooldown), im content to nerf it quickly just so its not op as hell anymore, then let it lie till next version. BECAUSE SHE IS GETTING REMADE NEXT VERSION.

as sad as it is, its ok for a hero to remain underpowered for a version, but its NOT ok to let it remain op as hell for a version.
this is the difficulty of developing with limited resources.
I DONT HAVE THE TIME to fix everyhting perfectly, so i quick-fix them and let them sit till next version where i can adress it properly

as to your specific list:
runt herd: getting remade (if you want ill nerf the slow, its not a bad idea)
rakel: addressed as my example
warboss: getting remade (and its not possible to remove the lag on that, i already tried)
typhus: humor me, what specifically is wrong with that? i know its powerful. but atm i cant put my finger on why.
lelith: wut? when was that an issue XD this is the first time ive heard of it ***
lucius: same as lelith
mad dok: same as lelith
warphead: is getting a fix next version (see your thread)
carnifex: getting a remake
zoey: has been addressed at elast once, i havnt seen him in games recently enough to know if he needs more
necron lord: define 'all'
big mek: mana burn has been changed btw, (2xint over the duration - no longer %)
cato: is getting remade
sigi: same as lelith
stern: permeate... as in, make it easier to get inside of? the skill is designed to keep people out >.> thats pretty much all it does
stats: is being slowly faded out
libby: thats how you feel, not to mention your working on a remake
celestine: is not gamebreaking, ive tested it out. Also, getting a rework
vinid: is getting remade
Yriel: i have a solution for this (And getting crit wont be game over anymore)
fuegan: is geting reworked
karandras: is getting reworked
asurmen: is getting reworked
aun'va: in what sense? Also, is getting reworked slightly
kharn: in what sense, and prolly same as Lelith.



*** CAPS IS RAGE

IM TRIRED OF PEOPLE COMMING TO ME WITH ISSUES FOR THE FIRST TIME AND ACTING LIKE THEY HAVE BEEN LONG DEBATED ISSUES THAT I SHOULD HAVE FIXED 10 VERSION AGO. IF YOU DONT TELL ME ABOUT IT AND I DOTN FIX IT, CHANCES ARE I DONT KNOW THAT ITS AN ISSUE.
SO DONT ACT ALL SUPERIOR AND SHIT WHEN TELLING ME ABOUT SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME, ACTING LIKE YOUVE BEEN TELLING ME ABOUT THIS SINCE FOREVER.

ALSO, DONT SAY X HERO IS IMBALANCED WHEN COMPLAINING. TELL ME WHAT IS WRONG WITH THEM SPECIFICALLY, LIKE X SKILL ON HERO X WHEN USE LIKE X IS IMBALANCED.

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by cellrawr on Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:11 pm

Just going over gly's part in grasses post.

Runt Herd: The nerf to slow is a good idea until the remake

Rakel: I will punch you in the dick grass. At least do a quick fix to its damage or how it levels. Either get rid of the leveling making it only bounce more (by making it something like have a set number of bounces and the damage is increased with leveling), or up the damage it does normally and keep the bounce leveling. It was op because it was quick damage that could be spammed, and refreshed her other abilities also. You took it to the opposite extreme. Take the middle ground at least.

Warboss: It's a bunch of mini-waves, right? Up the damage per wave a little and lessen the waves? At least something to tide it over til the remake.

Typhus: To me, all that happened (winds wise) was rot became leveled through the innate and winds through regular skill. All they did was switch places. It still does roughly the same damage (minus you breaking it last version). Whats making it powerful is its synergy with rot (to me anways). Take away the rot part on it and maybe just have it do its own damage as a dot when it hits instead of its own damage and then rot. I dunno.

Lelith: <_< I actually don't know

Lucius: I'm assuming it the same thing we've had with his ult in that if you cant get a heal in time your dead. I dunno.

Mad Dok: You can throw his ult, the disease thing, the heal/hurt thing, and his innate at them all at once and they are majorly hurt/dead by just that (and I'm not saying the problem is those being chained all at once, any combination really. Disease and heal/hurt can do it early game without any support). And thats in one round of them, and it stays like that for most of the game. They are individually crazy too. His disease hurts a fuckton and also silences them for the duration. The hurt/heal is like having staff without having staff. His explosion rapes creeps and anything in the area, period (especially if used in conjuction with disease). His ult has them hero dead as long as people are attacking that her (if they don't, yea, its a wasted ult. But theres really no middle ground. Its either your gonna die from a bajillion damage or your gonna walk away relatively unharmed.)

Warphead: You already know

Carnifex: Same

Zoey: I haven't recently either, and I don't think Gly has also (He mentioned he hadn't played in a long time just like me).

Necron Lord: Lightning Field still crazy no matter what has been done to it, Solar Pulse is an LOLGLOBALDISABLETOEVERYONE, Res orb is the same problem has every single pusher we have + it revives and then goes crazy with harbinger, Veil is still rape in a can (and then everything that teleported with you comes out of the can to rape them. Also, its a long ass escape that really has no equal. (Whatever his silence ability is called) can be spammed and just lock anyone down that relies on spells (and whatever else it does). Chrono's active is crap, but it is a aura with a chance for everyone in its range to just not take damage. I've never seen anyone ever use the third one in this branch. Staff makes him a ranged attacker and gives him free mana regen. The other two I personally don't see a problem with.

Big Mek: Haven't seen its new version tested

Cato: <_< We know that, but hes still ridiculous in a cake. If your fine with raping Rakels lightning, at least be consistent and do it to his summons (make them regular WC3 captains for all I care).

Sigi: Hell if I know

Stern: I agree with that it does what its meant to do in the translation from fluff and tt. But it still is ridiculous for our game. How about something like it still blocks creeps and the like, but heroes can enter it and still have to deal with everything it does. They would have to rely on their own attacking, but its still better than having to rely on some ranged attacker having to deal with his tankiness and the general no one is going through that way whatsover. Yea, its an area deny. At least make it an area deny by choice (the hero would have to be confident they can make it to try and go through it) instead of your not coming through because Stern says so. It's just better game balance (gotta think about that this is a WC3 game and not a W40k Fluff/TT battle).

Libby: <_< I agree, so your outnumbered at least 2 to 1! Ha! <_< But until the remake, I agree we gotta deal with it.

Celestine: Its range can squish entire waves of creeps. ENTIRE WAVES.

Yriel: And IIIII helped! (and I made Gly aware in our THE LIST thing about what our possible things to fix it are)

Aun'Va: I'm guessing pacify and being a summoner. Mainly pacify for gly.

Kharn: <_< In the same sense that hes always been since I first played him waaaay back (like v1ish days). HE CRITS YOUR DAMN FACE OFF. And theres nothing you can do about it but run. <_< It does go good with Kharn fluff though.

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Mortis on Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:43 pm

The main complaints i have is this: Any hero that we pick as a group CAN AND WILL RAPE FACE. All it takes is paying attention and doing a bit of work farming, and then every.single.one. of us can kill an entire team of noobies in the course of a few minutes. Obviously mitigated by circumstance, no single hero should be able to do excedeingly well at any number of tasks. The problem i have with the current necron lord for example, is he does a dozen things, and he does them well. TOO WELL. He can do whatever is needed, with absolutely no draw backs if the person picking him tools his skill selections to handle his current opponents. If a summoner is needed to push, he summons. If a tank is needed, he can tank, so on and so forth. I think, before we release the version, we need to do some serious testing on balance issues. We need to sit down and methodidicly test EVERY SINGLE HERO in conjunction with one another, and see if anyone seems to do overly well. If Heros arent being brought down and they should, THAT IS A PROBLEM. If a hero isnt pulling it's weight, first check the heros it's facing, then give it a buff.

Therefore, Im proposing that we assign specific tasks, with all the relevant data, and try to do some balancing. If needed, Give me a damn list of the ultimate items, and some general needed mid level items, and ill write up a damn list of recipes and combination's, as is, its bloody confusing.

Secondly, We need to make the game faster. A good long game is almost 1 hour 30 minutes, which is a bit much, which is why we get leavers. We need to buff gold gathering and experience gathering so people reach critical level's faster and can end the game sooner, making it more enjoyable to play.

Thirdly, We need to test every hero in conjunction with one another. Test this hero versus that hero, and vice versa, at all stages of the game. First we do 1v1s, then 2v2s... so on and so forth, And methodically test the results of each game, testing PURELY FOR BALANCE, not for effects. Yes this will be hard, and long, but it will be needed if we want the map to succeed.

I think if we want the game to do better, we NEED to do these things. We need to sit down, and as a group, decide what power level things should be at, then decide how to make everything meet that level, and what needs to be done to either bring things down, or raise them up, so everything reaches a central standard.
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:58 pm

On heroes:
I agree with most of what you say.
However, a lot of the percieved imbalance comes from the fact that we as a group know what were doing and will, almost always, be able to dominate random pubs.

Also, I have to disagree with your 1v1 proposal.
This is not balanced around being 1v1. Some heroes won't work in 1v1 situations.

But yes, we need to go over the heroes. I can only fix what people being to me tho.



Items:
Check out the item thread in the dev forum.

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And the Stuff was good.

Heroes:
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Mortis on Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:03 pm

A group cant look at this as a whole. give me the list, or give glyc, or someone with time to kill, and ill open a few codex's and go through a list of what should exist or what shouldn't, what should go into what. I dont agree with the multiple smaller recipes... And some of the items are severely op... *cough* Bionics, soulstone... *cough*
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:17 pm

Most items have moved away from a ton of smaller items as requirements.

As for bionics. 1550 for 8 str and 4 regen.
In components that costs 350 350 150 150 150 150 or 1300.
Or in larger parts. 350 350 450 450 or 1600
It larger yet. 350 350 1000 150 or 1850 but that is the same item slots so ill discount that one.
This tells me it needs slightly less str and slightly more cost.

edit: according to this, 2 inventory slots is worth 300g, so 5 must be worth 750 if we assume a linear equation.
and the item itself gives 300(450) 350 worth of bonuses (or 750(900)) over the base price of 650

so assuming current bonuses and a linear inventory slot equation, it should cost:
(base) (bonus) (slot value)
650 750(900) 750

which is 2150 (or 2300) gold, depending on which item you use to determin the bonus cost
which means the recipe should cost 1500 gold.

if i lower bonus str to 6, that would change the total cost to
(to get same bonus, 1150
in larger parts, 1350
2 slots saved cost: 200
5 slots saved: 500
base is 650, bonus is 500, slot is 500
total cost is 1650)


SOOO if i decrease the str bonus to 6, and increase the recipe cost to 1k, would that be ok?

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by ZebioLizard on Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:38 pm

The bad thing is, without Typhons uber wave (still not sure why its so strong) He's rather..weak, His skillset just doesn't help him out at all with a varied lack of Synergy.

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:43 pm

Well. He's a tank / pusher. All his skills work for that role. Just not necessarily together.

He could be due for a rework.

Also, iirc. Winds deals 220 damage. Much less than a standard nuke.

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Mortis on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:28 pm

Grass.. You are in fact aware of the sheer survivabilty of the item right? And you cant put a price on survivabilty. That kind of item is fucking nuts... The regen rate is off the charts, and combined with strength, is crazy. Id rather see seperate items, one a buffed regen item, loosing the strength, but easier to get. Not a single item, because its too easy to stack regen... And then you just need thunder hammer, some armor, and maybe another weapon/jump portal.
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:36 pm

I thought I just put a price on it Razz

1300 and 6 inventory slots.
Or 1600 and 4 slots

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Glycine on Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:39 am

I believe you're overcomplicating the fuck out of Bionics, Grass. K.I.S.S.

How's this sound: 4 strength, 3 Regen, for the cost of 1000-1150 total? Lower the bonuses, keep the same cost.

I like to be complicated, as you well know, but the way you've formatted your calculations without any explanation makes me pretty much ignore what you've done, because I can't read or understand any of it. Your distinct lack of punctuation hurts when you put a bajillion numbers.

Oh, and when I saw you said Typhus may be ready for a remake, I facepalmed.
Do I seriously need a jackhammer to tell you the obvious, or do I need time to do my job for me?

Also:
Cato: <_< We know that, but hes still ridiculous in a cake. If your fine with raping Rakels lightning, at least be consistent and do it to his summons (make them regular WC3 captains for all I care).

Acknowledge that you've read this, and will do something. Because I didn't see anything. I brought up my issues, so address them. Don't pffft them away just because remakes are in the works. The remake isn't going in until after this version is started, and it won't affect gameplay, so fix the damn game already instead of saying I'll do it later when later could be 4 months from now.

I mean, if Cato isn't at least addressed this update, I don't know what to think of your perception of balance. You say you care, but you're quite content to not act. Why are you trying to stall on something that isn't a very hard fix? Ask us what needs be done, we'll gladly assist, but the initiative lies with you.

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Glycine on Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:53 am

as sad as it is, its ok for a hero to remain underpowered for a version, but its NOT ok to let it remain op as hell for a version.

You can't overnerf a hero and not expect to get bitched out about it by people. Is there a mathematical reason why you chose 8 seconds as the new cooldown? Does its DPS and average mana cost correlate better at 8 seconds, or did you choose a completely random, larger number, just for the sake of nerfing? Because I oppose those kinds of changes. You're not fixing the problem, only creating a new one.

At the very least, find a cooldown/mana cost/damage ratio that suits, rather than crippling the hero entirely. It's not very hard to adjust the cooldowns/damage values/and mana costs of a spell.

Runt Herd: A nerf on slow, and a buff on Runts would be appreciated.
Rakel: Address the DPS ratio.
Warboss: *shrugs*
Typhus: It's the mana cost and cd on Winds, generally. Fix those, it should be fine. DPS on Rot might need a tad nerf.
Lelith: It's quite possible to go Net/Spheres and dominate a game. Did you fix Death Strike?
Lucius: He is paper, literally. He dies so fast, it's not funny, and the amount of damage he does isn't enough to counter. Plus, the ult is only ever useful if you can get someone to land a blow or two.
Mad Dok: His cooldowns are a bit too quick.
Carnifex: I still believe something is up with Regen. No way he could have gotten 70 strength from Regeneration.
Warphead: Do what you did with Rakel. Nerf the shit out of Zzap.
Zoey: Still needs more evaluation.
Necron Lord: duration on Silence, damage on Veil, most of the effects on his skills a la cell are a bit imbalanced.
Big Mek: You do realize late game 2x int over 5.5 seconds means that targets will lose 300-400 mana each cast? A bit more broken, if you ask me.
Cato: *no comment*
Sigi: You buffed a character who didn't need a buff. Fix Charge in how it stonewalls against allied units.
Stern: What Cell said.
Libby: Despite the large 60% damage buff, it doesn't make him a DPS character able to make use of Veil.
Celestine: Oh, so when I take 300 extra damage from the splash hitting the creeps near me, that's not a problem.
Reworks: No comment.

And Grass, to counterrage, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE HAD TO BITCH ABOUT CATO? HOW MANY!?!? Karandras is much the same way. We act this way BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN BITCHING FOR THE PAST 10 VERSIONS ABOUT him/lord of change/Ahriman/Kharn/Typhus/Commie/Autarch/Zoey/the list goes forever on. And you did a few of them, so good for you and the map. But that doesn't stop us from bitching about shit you should have done a version ago.

I understand pubbies will be pubbies. But even in in-houses, Cato is one of the most rigged heroes, and there's very little we can even do to stop him, other than try and hope he fails as a player or runs out of mana a lot. Yes, ganks work rather well, but what happens if you're facing another pusher? The amount of map control he exerts is disproportionate to his actual cost.
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Son007 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:15 am

Wow, just wow. So much text there that I just skipped over parts (like the very first one, read the first paragraph and was like: "I know what the rest is about").

Anyways.

Terrain: It needs a lot of work. Its kinda really ugly and some places make no sense. Like all the damn hill everywhere. Make the map flat and put some hills, not hills every other inch (game measurements). Also, could there be a mode for snow? I'd really like to see a nice map all in snow, but I guess that can wait til after other things.

Heroes: (Harlequin wasn't mentioned at all). There are some heroes that really really need to be changed some, I'm not going to list because there have been two lists.

Hero Help/Ideas: I haven't played/read anything about W40k, so I just try to help with numbers and what would seem op to people but not the creator. If there is a detailed web site that has the info on the units that I could go to, I could help with making the heroes fit a bit more and new hero ideas based on their book selves.

Maybe if someone listed out the top 5 things that needs to be changed/nerf/buffed/removed/added to the map, we could work in small steps for each version. That way things get done and Grasshopper isn't over worked and under paid. We could do two things from heroes, 2 from items, and 1 from terrain just to spread it all out.

Sometimes it just helps to be nice and ask with a please and thanks to get something changed or even looked into. Thanks.
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by cellrawr on Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:32 am

Terrain:
That's why we have someone like Faire (our terrainer). But since her computer has been buttfucked for however long its been (GO AND GET YOUR DAMN COMPUTER BACK FAIRE, IT DOESN'T TAKE THIS LONG FOR BEST BUY TO FIX IT. IF THEY CAN'T FIX IT, THEY USUALLY TELL YOU WHAT YOU NEED TO REPLACE OR TO BUY A FUCKING NEW ONE. GRAAAAAHHHHH), that part has been kinda halted.

Heroes:
We of course know thats not every single hero that has problems of some sort. Its just the big list to make grass know that there isn't just a couple things that we are bitching about.

Hero Help/Ideas:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page

If you want the codexs (the stuff for the tabletop which is the other half of what characters spawn from besides fluff), me and gly have 6+ gigabytes of em.

I agree with Sons spreading out thing. The long ass breaks between each huge fucking version really pisses people off. If something major like a hero being to be redone or the item system being reworked needs to be done, it won't be done into an official version until like months later (how long did we have to deal with Tyhpus, Drop Pod from anywhere, etc last version?). I would actually suggest instead of doing a bit of each for each version, we actually lessen it to only one category (a couple heroes for a version so we all are focused on those heroes and how they play into the map. Items so we focus on how they affect everything. Bugs so we focus just on those bugs.)


Last edited by cellrawr on Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:50 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by Glycine on Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:41 am

I would agree that we do bite off more than we chew, and to limit that amount would be good. But there's too much to fix. I agree that it's good to be nice, but balance issues are always testy, because either they've been in need for a while, or they're coming up after raising the wrath of some poor soul.

I'm asking if you would do at least a few of the things that are absolutely required, such as balancing a few skills, before you release the next version. Don't screw with Yriel's Path of Command. It's not a priority fix right now. Only deal with skills that are absolutely necessary to fix.
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by cellrawr on Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:01 am

<_< Yea, going with that, I say this current version is nowhere near done. This is supposed to be the big fix everything so we can focus on something like Nid Mode without having something like hero balance or item balance be thrown into the hell that would be. We need to rebalance the heroes for what they are right now, and not just wait for the remake (yea, that means libby keeps his current Ult, just try to make it more user friendly somehow).

<_< Also, I really don't see why we need to rush this version to be out right now. I know school is started up and such, but its not like we do major work every single day anyways.

Blah blah blah, we really shouldn't push this to a later date because who knows what could happen later on. Grass could just up and die for all we know. <_< At least have a nice, clean version to not have the map end on a sour note.




THIS JUST IN, GRASS HAS CANCER. WORK ON THIS VERSION HARD BECAUSE GRASS HAS CANCER.

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by 13loodRaven on Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:38 am

Well, we should have shops closer together, to streamline base respawning/visits. Also, most of the heroes need a nerf, true, but not that important for the time being. The only problem I'm concerned with this map is the items, for a little low tier item costs around 1k. This makes things pretty sad, for in the case of noobs, and heroes that cant farm well, it makes life really, really hard to get a decent med-high tier item thats worth buying.

Most recepie items need a price nerf, I mean if you're seriously considering bionics to have something like +6 str and +3 regen for the cost of 1k... Most tanks already have that, but the current bionics is pretty good at the moment, I'm just trying to outline COSTS vs. BENEFITS!

Take most of the standard stat giving items, I mean shit. Any of the bosspole-type items give like 5+ stats for 1k gold... You'd be better off just investing your time in the stats ability, seeing how some skills really aren't worth it early.


Some more suggestions; Creeps are too beefed against heroes early, and the branched-off outposts are relatively weak, or most of the outposts for that matter. Give them an ability or something that reduces hero damage by "x%" or something, and get a standard creep upgrade in the base barracks, and/or just have their attack-health-etc upgraded every 10 minutes or so.

And stop raging at each other x) you prolly are frustrated at eachother for whatever reason, but everyone else wont give a fuck unless you try to be civil about it. Anger is a pathetic emotion that just makes you look like a tool when you put it into text anyway.

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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

Post by ZebioLizard on Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:16 am

Well. He's a tank / pusher. All his skills work for that role. Just not necessarily together.

An ability draining life from himself, and an ability that makes it take about 2-5 seconds more to hurt him, THESE ABILITIES DO NOT MAKE A TANK! The only useful skill he has now, is his warscythe, his ultimate is rather weak in the current ver
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Re: Fuck. This. Shit.

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