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lets fix the items! (.47)

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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Glycine on Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:44 pm

Honour Blade:

This is a long, broad-bladed spear mounted on a lightweight metallic shaft. The honour blade is used to settle disputes between Ethereal caste members in stylized bloodless duels. It is used in elegant sweeping movements where the blade becomes virtually invisible. The honour blade must be used in two hands = the wielder cannot therefore count as carrying an additional weapon. It adds +2 to the wielder's strength when rolling to wound.

Fluff, go!


Last edited by Glycine on Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by cellrawr on Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:54 pm

broad-bladed pear: It's a fruit that you hit people with?

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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:51 pm

Update:
-staff of tzeentch now deals with mana, instead of life
-psychic link replaced narthecium in componenets, recipe cost changed

-honorblade now gives a regen aura, drains mana on attack, and has an active aoe heal

-increased the cost on warp icon's recipe (850 => 1100)

-khornate chain axe now has a chance to ministun instead of getting bonus damage from the recipe
-removed the bonus ias gained from the chain axe recipe (bonuses for making now are the +1 strength, and the ministun)

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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:17 pm

Update:
-replaced the bionics requirement in Singing Spear with a boss pole
-lowered the strength given by Singing Spear (10 => 5)

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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:28 pm

Update:
singing spear now takes a psychic link isntead of a boss pole, and updated and corrected the total price

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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:48 pm

Update:
(this is likely to change) Webway portal's portal takes 6 seconds to open(this wont change), and has unlimited range. Units take (distance/2000) seconds to travel through the portal
recipe cost increased to 2700

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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Glycine on Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:43 am

Honour Blade:

Items: Power Weapon, Anointed Oils, Psychic Link, Master Crafting, Refraction Field
Cost: 2200, 250, 1000, 450, 1650 + 1500 gold, 5 honor recipe = 7050 gold
Original Bonuses: 2 Armor, 250 HP, Refraction, 4 Agility, 10 Intelligence, 18 damage.

New Bonuses: 15 damage, 10 Intelligence, 10 Agility, 200 health, Toggle ability: Shield and Sword

Shield and Sword: Honour Guard and Ethereal alike know the art of using an honour blade, how to parry, block, and strike with lightning-quick efficiency. Is a toggle that allows the bearer to switch between offensive, defensive, and neutral modes.

Sword: -5 intelligence, -3 armor, -100 health, +5 damage, +5 agility, Int/5% chance on attack to strike a killing blow, dealing pure damage that ignores evasion or dodge.

Shield: -5 damage, -5 agility, +5 intelligence, +3 armor, +100 health, 25% chance on being attacked to disarm or disable an attacker's weapon for the next 5 seconds, reducing that unit's attack damage by an amount equal to the bearer's Agility.

Neutral: +2 Agility, Intelligence, & Armor. Gains the Counterattack ability: The bearer of his weapon has a 15% chance to deflect and nullify any physical attack, and will gain 15% movement speed and 30% attack speed after doing for 5 seconds
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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:29 am

if you compress that down into an item tooltip, ill be impressed Razz

also, its no longer a relic anymore, its just an upgrade cause of the power weapon. It should be repriced and stat'd to match.

issues:
from a background perspective:
glycine wrote:Honour Guard and Ethereal alike know the art of using an honour blade, how to parry, block, and strike with lightning-quick efficiency
but the weapon itself doesnt apply this property to the wielder. Its a dueling weapon, and a weapon of office.

2/3 times, you lose the refraction ability, 50 hp, and 3 damage.
as well as 1/3 times, you *lose* armor, damage, and hp.

and toggles on an item work funny (see armor of ulthamar)

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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Glycine on Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:51 am

*points at Sword of Secrets* It too comes from a base of a power weapon, so that logic really can't work. If you're trying to say the item isn't expensive enough or doesn't require enough good items, *shrugs*. I felt the original bonuses given were enough.

In addition, the Tau don't really seem to care about their melee combat, but if they did, I would imagine they would prioritize skill above all else. Technically, Raven's Talons doesn't Rupture, it Rends, the Uge Choppa doesn't corrupt, it just overpowers through any armor, and there are lots of other effects that don't exactly correspond with what they give in the TT.

Surprisingly, you're being too literal, because there's nothing to work off of with Honor Blade in its sole description. Units that carry it have the ability to counter-attack and generally outskill people in melee combat, hence the parry, etc.

Think about it. Why would they give Honor Guard melee weapons if they weren't damn good at using them in the first place? Yes, two strength is nice and all, but there's more to combat than strength. Why wouldn't they use pulse rifles or plasma rifles, if you just wanted them to be strong?

I could (and have said) that the current effects of honour blade do not apply those buffs at all in any way or form. Mana drain? The honour blade doesn't work off warp potential and can't influence it either. Regen? Maybe? Do Honor Guard get extra regen? Heals? Honour Guard can't heal other things?

There's a difference between trying to base an item on what one imagines it would do in combat and trying to base an item on the abilities of one unit that uses it. Ethereals aren't the only ones who use Honor Blades, and you shouldn't design the Honour Blade's abilities around what Ethereals do. I saw it as a weapon of melee combat that takes skill to use and grants skill in return. Yes, you sacrifice some bonuses to get others, but the abilities associated with each mode more than make up for what is lost.

How would a three mode item work best then?
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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:47 pm

ok, point on sword.
and i was saying that since its not technically a relic, it should have a lower cost/stats because of it.

random ass idea btw, since sword is technically not a relic, and gives 2 strength, and honorblade also gives 2 strength, we can make one (without stretching too far, imo) require the other.


either way.
the items you mentioned keep (relatively) close to their table top effects.
the effects you propose dont.

that wouldnt bother me, however, except for a few things.
1: just because you wield the sword doesnt mean that you automatically get enough martial skill to parry etc. Yes, you can say the traditional wielders do have that skill... but they didnt get that skill from wielding the sword. Where as all of the other item's effects (iirc) come from the powers of the item iteself.
2: imo, its just too much for an item. Items are supposed to be (relatively) simple. And your idea definatly isnt simple (theres no way you can fit that on a tooltip, for one)

and you shouldnt base an item on the abilities of the unit that uses it because then your not holding to the item, your creating ideas for the unit that would use it (TT wise)

and no, the current honorblade effects dont hold to the TT effects, or really the fluff... but ive never disputed that.

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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by ZebioLizard on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:09 pm

In addition, the Tau don't really seem to care about their melee combat,
but if they did, I would imagine they would prioritize skill above all
else

Etherals melee skill in TT is equal to a basic space marine. And STRENGTH EQUAL TO an IMPERIAL GUARDSMAN

Infact the whole reason they use rail guns is because they because they had horrible depth perception and didn't desire to train fully with kinetic weaponry or various other types. So in effect they didn't truly train themselves to ever defeat their issues in melee or ranged. Just used a type of weapon that bypasses it entirely. It takes skill to bypass a weakness. Not to entirely bypass it.


Think about it. Why would they give Honor Guard melee weapons if they weren't damn good at using them in the first place?

Because they DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE MELEE WEAPONS. Sheesh. They are better shots then normal firewarriors, but they USE THE SAME WEAPONS. And even if they had the melee weapon, it'd be most likely for Decorative purposes. Same for some military uniforms in real life.
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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Glycine on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:14 pm

Again, Sword of Secrets. Just because you wield a master-crafted power weapon that allows you to strike at S6 doesn't (or even shouldn't) give you the ability to life steal.

There's an obvious disconnect between what's in the game and what it actually is. Just because you wield a staff of Tzeentch, does that mean he will always smile upon you and send winds to heal you? If a Power Fist strikes at I1 against 1 enemy, what gives it the right to deal AoE damage in an area around the user? All of these items "automatically" give the bearer the ability to do whatever the hell the item says it does, yet you're perfectly willing to let these effects stand in lieu of your current view on honor blade?

I'm not saying your point is bad. It is an issue that the Honor Blade has little description. But going off the description prevents any kind of innovation, besides giving an extra hidden attack every so often.

In relation to simplicity: If it were up to me, I would probably take out the neutral mode, to keep a simple two-switch. And I fail to see how a single-toggle item is too complex for people to grasp. They click once to switch modes. >> Wording can be simplified just as well, so don't hate on that. Watch me fit it on a tooltip:

Honor Blade:
15 damage, 10 Agi & Int, 200 HP, 2 Armor, Toggle ability: Shield and Sword

Shield and Sword: Honour Guard and Ethereal alike know the art of using an honour blade, how to parry, block, and strike with lightning-quick efficiency. Is a toggle that allows the bearer to switch between offensive, defensive, and neutral modes.

Sword: +5 Agi, Damage, -5 Int, -3 Armor, -100 HP, Smite: Int/5% chance to strike with True Strike and ignore Resistance.

Shield: -5 Agi, Damage, +5 Int, +3 Armor, +100 HP, Disarm: 25% chance when attacked to reduce an attacker's damage amount equal to bearer's Agi.

Basing on Abilities: Grass, an item by itself is sometimes meaningless. The Honor Blade without the characters that use it is just a simple spear. It gives +2 Strength. What do you expect to do with that kind of description? Give it a heal? Give the hero who uses it Bonus strength? >.>;

Also...
I would prefer we find another sword for the Str. attribute. The Sword of Secrets is outdated, lacks any good effects, and generally is outclassed by stuff in 5th edition.
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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Glycine on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:18 pm

Also, Zebio. Go look at Aun'va's Honour Guard in Tau 4th edition and tell me that the weapons they use are pulse rifles. I would love for you to update the codex for me, so the Space Pope wasn't so weird.

You're talking about Fire Warrior Honour Guard. I'm talking about the ACTUAL honour guard.

Also, Aun'shi has S3, WS5. His purpose isn't to be a Kharn, because Tau can't be Kharns. He was proficient enough with the Honour Blade to parry attacks away and to Rend with it. Not all Tau suck at close combat, you know. >>
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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:23 pm

sword of secrets got turned into Relic Blades in the 5th ed codex.

also, fit it into a *real* tooltip. Once you get past the weapon fluff and the bonuses... you might manage to fit the fact that its a toggle skill, and nothing else.

and i hope your not telling me that you, in all your creative genious, cant find effects for the weapon that dont originate from their wielders.

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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Glycine on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:35 pm

Sword of Secrets: Still on item list, Dark Angels Specific item.
Relic Blades: Not on item list. >>

Exactly how big is a tooltip? Specify the exact character limit that will fit wholly on a tooltip.

Ha. What creative genius? I found effects that generally adhere to what the weapon is used for. If you're asking for what the Honour Blade does by itself, absolutely, positively nothing other than a sear. It's no less than a Power Weapon and shouldn't be on the list of Relic weapons if you're restricting what it can do to what the staff can do.


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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:42 pm

ok maby im off...
i remeber reading somewhere that sword of secrets was gone, and the unit that used it got Relic blades for the same effect...
not even knowing wich army gets relic blades/sword of secrets.

I dont know the exact character limit, but staff of tzeench cuts off before it can say how much damage it deals.

Its been done with all the other weapons, it can be done with this one

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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by ZebioLizard on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:54 pm

Aun'Vas has 2 strength..he's weaker then a normal ethereal.

If I had to guess. Those two honor guard trained to keep people away from Aun'va in close range combat. With special honor blades crafted for them.

(Aun'va has WS 1! Holy crap he has the worst ingame WS and is melee!)

If I had to guess even more, the only REASON those tau are even able to fight properly in melee is due to the special artifact he wields.
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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Glycine on Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:08 am

Then why don't we all work together to make an effect? I gave my estimate of honour blade.

And Aun'va is shit. No questions asked. Aun'shi, on the other hand, is a badass.

Also, all Space Marine armies can have relic blades on one of their special characters, I'm almost sure. It isn't exactly unique.
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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by ZebioLizard on Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:55 am

Actually, the honour blades the etherals use increases strength by +2, relic blades of the space marines is treated automatically at Strength 6 and a power weapon.

The Paradox Blade Aun'va weilds however, provides a toughness bonus to himself AND his guard (potentially anyone nearby in fluff) This is an actual unique effect that is very rare..(Tempted to make a skill out of it for Aun'va in replacement of his peace move)

I'll give some thoughts on some honour blade stuff tomorrow.
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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by 13loodRaven on Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:47 am

Definately should be an agility-intelligence item based more on intel, and with a good effect. Something like what Zeb said, but I cant put my finger on it..

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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Glycine on Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:35 pm

*facepalm*

Please read the description a little more clearly. The Paradox of Duality is a staff, not a blade. Had I wished to make another Int. Caster item, I would have a variety of choices to do so. That's not my intent, though. My intent is to make another item for non-intelligence heroes to use as well.

The Honour Blade is not a Staff! xD It should not be based on intelligence because it doesn't really do anything mind-wise.
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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:46 pm

Its a dueling spear Razz
Altho how someone duels with a spear is beyond me.

I do think that it should give AGI and int tho. It would fit a niche there. The only problem is that none of the int basic items make sense on the blade. Unless you wanna add runes. Another problem is that there are no suitable weapon upgrades except the dire sword. Which would make it a weapon upgrade itself.

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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Glycine on Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:24 pm

All this discussion highlights an issue I've noticed.

We lack basic items for combination and we have too many times that are differentiated. We have 5 basic weapons only, compared to 15+ weapons made from that selection.
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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:28 pm

we have 3 basic items Razz

but yes, i do agree with that. Make honor blade a basic recipe!! XD

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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

Post by Glycine on Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:47 pm

Here's an item. Can we limit people to:
- 2 one-handed melee weapons
- 1 one-handed melee weapon and 1 one-handed ranged weapon
- 1 two-handed weapon
- 1 two-handed ranged weapon

It would prevent items from being abused in large quantities and force people to rely more on their own skills.

Also, if you expand the umbrella of what a close combat weapon is, then it's possible to use it as a placeholder for any possible melee weapon, with the right items added on. So you would only need two basic weapon items.

Close Combat Weapon: (Sword, Spear, Dagger, Hammer, Claw, Axe, Fist, Exotic?)

Ranged Weapon: (Laser, Bolt, Plasma, Flame, Melta, Exotic)

Add any if I forgot?
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Re: lets fix the items! (.47)

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