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Eldar Balance Changes

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Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:24 am

Just to keep discussion focused on the tavern at hand, it would be easier to separate them.

First up.

Farseer --> See Remake Thread.

Autarch --> See Remake Thread.

Avatar:

  1. Include Big Bad Tiki Man as one of the random names.
  2. Nerf the hell out of the innate or find another one. It's way too good, plus it's easy to maintain mid-late game.
  3. For Wailing Doom, reduce the number/potency of the effects. 240 damage, -5 armor, 20% ms debuff is a little much.
  4. Reduce the effectiveness of Emblem of War or change the skill completely. Does too much healing, and I think we made it up anyway. >>
  5. The thing about the immo is while it doesn't do very much damage, it helps him farm like an evil person. Just thoughts on that.
  6. Why does he explode dead things? Could you explain that to me? Where exactly did this skill come from? xD
  7. I was thinking about doing something with the Young King/Avatar as 2 heroes in one, Young King has his skills, Avatar his own, ult serves as a go-between.
  8. As seen earlier, he alone late game can push outposts. In fact, he's almost a better pusher than Cato because of exploding corpses and massive heal and MS aura.

Harlequin:
  1. Increase strength gain, decrease agility gain slightly to make her slightly more balanced.
  2. I know you're going to shout me down on this, but I'm going to rearrange her skills:
    Innate: Holo-field (modified to Domino-field)
    Skill 1: Harlequin's Kiss (Active/passive)
    Skill 2: Flip Belt (Same)
    Skill 3: Webway Assault (Serves as a Blink/effect)
    Ult: Dance of Death (Since it's ult-level now, lots of things can be done with it that couldn't normally, since it would be overpowering for a normal skill. Got ideas? *Looks at Son*
  3. D-Field: Basically, having pure triggered evasion is a bit much for Harle, and Lucius curses her all the time. So I thought to split up the triggered evasion value into a smaller one and one that just gives evasion.
    Progression would be 5/10/15/20/25/30% normal evasion and 3/6/9/12/15/18% triggered evasion.
  4. Harlequin's Kiss: Passive would give the Harlequin the ability to autokill creeps at 3/6/9/12%. Same AoE damage effect happens. Active would cause a 2 second stun, as it does now, but at much less damage: 100/150/200/250 damage.
  5. Flip Belt: I don't really think you can change it much. It works fine as is.
  6. Webway Assault: It incorporates a blink to supplement the loss of mobility when Dance was moved to the ult as well as another effect. Basically, she blinks to a point, sets down either a Hallucinogen or Tanglefoot or both, and waits for an enemy to activate the trap.
  7. Dance of Death: You can have fun with this one? xD

Fuegan:
  1. Strength based, instead of Agi. Based
  2. Feel No Pain: 50% of the time, will reduce damage by % equal to .1/.2/.3/.4/.5/.6x of Fuegan's Strength, while the other 50% of the time, he will take full damage from attacks.
  3. Fire Pike: Active. Range reduction is cut out and now adds 10/15/20/25 damage per point of armor to the damage of the skill.
  4. Fire Axe: Active. Strikes a target with his Fire Axe, stripping 2/4/6/8 armor off and doing a 20/25/30/35 DoT for 10 seconds.
  5. Tank Hunters: Passive: For every 5/4/3/2 armor a target has, all of Fuegan's damage is buffed by 4%.
  6. Ult: Dragon's Inferno- Works like crack shot. Does 120/240/360 damage + 10/15/20% of target's life. Reduced cripple debuff.


Last edited by Glycine on Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:28 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:18 pm

wrath of khaine was made up, emblem of war was not Razz
emblem gives nearby eldar fearless

i can reduce the heal and change the duration on emblem, tahts what i inted to do.
something like 1/1/2/2% heal with a 10/13/16/19 second duration.
or something

and the young king is sacrificed to summon the avatar.
under no circumstances should the young king and avatar be available as the same hero.

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:25 am

Well, we made up the healing. xD And Emblem isn't even called Emblem, it's Inspiring in the new codex.

And I did read some little bit of fluff how the Avatar can emerge from a webway portal quite a bit away from the craftworld, so the concept of the young king is possible. At this point though, it's not quite necessary. Razz

Instead of giving 2% heal for 19 seconds, couldn't it relate to the Avatar's current/max health? The value could be a flat value instead of a percentage, which is what makes it so OP for friendly heroes.

So we need to get a new innate then. xD Perhaps relation to shards of the nightbringer? Bloody hand due to Eldanesh?

By the way....
Why does he explode dead things?
Could we, you know, fix that maybe? It's a huge part of why he's somewhat overpowered. xD
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:41 am

really? the 50 or so damage every time a unit dies in a small aoe makes him imba?
XD

and why does he need a new innate? cause the current one needs toning down?
there is no need to add in a new skill because the current one is powerful. we can nerf it, cause it fits the hero.

flat values for the heal aura are very lame. and %'s cant go in decimal numbers without triggering stuff
and Emblem of War > inspiring for a name Razz
and the healing is the fearless effect

oh! also... the avatar is the closest thing we have to an 'anti-aoe' hero.... so build on that if your so insistant on chaning him Razz

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by cellrawr on Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:51 am

I think it's more than 50 damage, but say you use your insta creep kill innate and let your immo aura starting doing its thing. The enemy wave gets wiped out pretty fast and you have a good chance of just getting a good amount of gold just standing there. Then you also have the buffs from the amount of creeps coming at endgame.

<.< And hows a hero that has two passive aoes (Immo and Ult) an 'anti-aoe' hero? That just confused me.

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:52 pm

it is 50 damage pretty much

and the ult and emblem makes him as much anti-aoe as we have.
they aoe your creeps? they take damage
and the aoe heal counteracts any aoe damage that might be inflicted

another option is healing nearby allies when you take damage

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:02 pm

Uhm. *facepalm*

Even with my terrible logic, Grass, AoE attacks usually do their damage in the time span of a few seconds. Also, most of them are casted by ranged heroes or from random, so they don't take damage. xD Maybe their creeps do, but they do anyway.

For example. Lord of Change is massive on his AoE's, but Avatar doesn't do anything to touch them directly. He can't stop the firestorm from casting.

Your notion of an anti-AoE hero is a bit skewed. So what if he can heal? Staff gives anyone that capability. The ult really only hurts heroes in melee, who are forced to get up close to kill.
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:25 pm

if you and 3 mates are targeted with an aoe spell, and you have a skill that heals nearby allies for 20% of the damage you take, they will take 20% less damage from that aoe spell. and staff has a cooldown.
thats how it works

and if when they aoe your creeps, they (get damage or their creeps die)
then it counters aoe a bit. Every team will have some melee heroes.
not to mention the avatar gets better when you aoe his creeps cause of the ult

yes, the aoe heal aura isnt the greatest way of countering aoe, but it helps some
and it kinda makes the effects of aoe damage less if you dont instantly clear the wave.

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:36 pm

38% over 19 seconds, Grass for the old skill, and it has a cooldown too.

And you just can't go and change the skill just like that to support your argument. First change it without pulling the wool over our eyes and then argue your point. That's why we're "wtf" because we think we're working with the older skill, when you're talking about a completely different skill that hasn't been elucidated.

Plus, assuming worst case scenario, which is an orbital bombardment, first 750 would be reduced to 562 damage through magic resist, and then 20% of that is 112.5, which is pretty much the maximum amount he'll heal from a single AoE. That said, the rest of your mates still take 400+ damage, and the old skill would be far more beneficial to use, even at 2% values. 38% of health over 19 seconds > 112.5.

In fact, staff heals much more than the changed Emblem would on average.

And the avatar gains attack speed from the ult. Which is somewhat negligible for him, as he's not meant to go off on someone like Karandras. He's supposed to be slow, but powerful and an inspiring presence.
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:54 pm

im talking about both skills atm notice im talking about emblem *and* a skill that heals allies when you get damged?

how powerful is 20% reduction to aoe to your team? thats what it comes down to.
and staff heals for 165 does it not?
and your comparing them like this: the skills max power (38% over 19 seconds, 165 heal from staff) but bearly making any use out of the other (1 nuke)
in reality, you going to eat a lot more than just ONE aoe nuke in 19 seconds.
orbital + another aoe already matches staff for healing (157 hp), and over the space of 7 seconds (lets assume that they mass their nukes a bit slowly, and dont burst you to the ground) current emblem would heal 280 hp on a 2k hp hero.
while you said yourself that most nukes do their damage in the span of a few seconds. If i accounted for that, the burst healing from this potential new skill would be greated than the healing you would have recieved with the current emblem.
and dont forget that it doesnt only work when being nuked, but whever hes damaged too.

emblem on the otherhand keeps your creeps fighting longer in non-aoe situations due to them prolly healing almost faster than they can be damaged by enemy creeps.

they would both conceivably work on the avatar, who ends up being a support tank. or should be anyway... absorbing damage and allowing his team to fight longer.
the current emblem in the long run is much more powerful, but we all know that its too powerful. a non-interuptable 38% max hp heal is too powerful, unless we limit the avatar in some way when he is using it, like not making him able to move or attack or something drastic. but with it he pretty much becomes a mobile fountain.

so lets think on this:
the innate i can increase the values, make it stack alot less or not at all, and increase the cooldown.
make it more powerful but not as easily stacked.

wailing doom is fine.

emblem can stay the same or can be replaced with the potential heal allies when your damaged skill.

immo is fine as well

and for the ult, can we make it deal damage to whoever killed the unit as well? that would elimitate the range hero problem, as well as make it more dangerous to aoe creeps with the avatar around.

edit:
he wants to be targeted because of his emblem of war, ult, and immolation, making him a tank. He also has the hp/str gain to support that facility.
his taking power is supplemented by his innate, which heals him and gives him damage/ms, and his ult, which gives him ias.
and he (would)benefits his team by tanking through (a new) emblem. they get hp when he gets focused.

he becoms a support tank that is able to do more than just sit there and take hits when his enemy gets going.

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:21 pm

The problem is, he's too good of a tank. xD

Ult: We know it's already overpowered. Consider this. If there are around 10 creeps a wave, that's 500 damage right there. While ranged heroes can pick off creeps with some safety, melee heroes get absolutely shafted if they try to defend their creep wave, because the immolation will also stack onto the damage.

It's the same debate we had earlier with thunder hammer. You're looking too closely at the statistics of the skill, while ignoring the big picture. It's 50 damage, so you say. Except it's 50 damage times the number of creeps in any given wave, which can range from 5 to 20.

So for example, say there are 4 enemy creeps around the Avatar, plus a hero near them for a duration of 5 seconds.

Take immolation damage first, which turns out to be 45 * 5 = 235 damage. Then add the exploding creep damage, which is 200. Then place Wailing Doom, and that's another 250. Finally, his autoattacks will pack a punch, so that's another 200/250, if the avatar attacks the hero. Does a tank really need 1k burst damage in 5 seconds?

This example is a bit situational, but it shows the amount of damage he can pump out in quick succession, which makes it impossible for low health or melee heroes to effectively do anything to him. Plus, since he farms up like mad, he'll often get thunder hammer quickly, and then no melee hero can touch him, since he'll have IAS off the ult, IMS off the innate, and durability off his tankishness. Plus, with Wailing Doom, he's an evil ganker when paired up with a slow/stun as the target moves 300 distance in 2 seconds. >>

Remember when we talked about Fuegan and how his nuker/tankishness was hard to balance? Avatar is much the same way, except with tankishness/dps utility. If anything, I consider avatar a pusher/anti-pusher, because of the current ult.

For the "tl;dr" faction, here's my point. The ult is ridiculous, he farms too well, and is generally too good of a hero if played correctly.
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:27 pm

Added Harlequin, by the way.
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by ZebioLizard on Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:59 pm

Problem is, harliquins kiss is a major powerful skill in 40k, but dance of death is relativily weak in that.
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:36 pm

your right, i am against the changes Razz

zebio is correct: kiss is the weapon that *everyone* fears from the harlequins, while dance just gives a few *relitavly* minor assault bonuses (in TT)

and when it comes down to it, you buffed(ish) holofield, and gave her another mobility spell instead of fleet of foot Razz

and kiss as a incinerate orb + stun is definatly better than kiss just as the ult stun when it comes to her farming ability)

so this new harlequin gets:
+evasion vs attacks
+farming
+mobility

-evasion vs spells
-raw dps ability

so, i didnt include the -burst damage cause Dance of Death isnt figured out yet. and we dont know what the after effect of web way assault is ether*
shes a better carry cause the farming goes way up, and her burst is the same, and her late game survivablity also goes up because of the evasion.
and shes more of a bitch because of the 3 displacement skills



*also, webway assault is more a darkeldar thing in TT

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:21 pm

Innate:

Triggered evasion includes evasion for all things, grass. Currently, it's at 27%, if I last recall.

So that's 27% to dodge any effect of damage. In fact, I weakened her evasion by splitting the two, because now she can't stack holosuit onto her holosuit. Plus, because it's an innate skill, it won't even be as good as it is now, since the current holosuit gives max triggered evasion at level 7, while the innate holosuit won't be truly handy until level 16+.

Harlequin's Kiss:

Plus, I think you're definitely leaning too much on the side of DoW for your Kiss info. Dance of Death gives Furious Charge and Hit and Run. It's so relatively minor that we gave Sigismund Furious Charge for no reason at all. >>

Eldar Codex, 5th edition: Harlequin's kiss counts as a CC weapon. CC attacks made with the Kiss have the Rending special rule --> Any roll to wound of 6 automatically causes a wound and counts as AP2.

While the Harlequin's Kiss used to wound on a 2+, it's no longer that way. So congrats, the kiss is about as scary as any weapon that can rend, because you can't rely on a roll of 6 to kill every independent character for you.

I gave her another mobility skill because her evasion took a HUGE hit. If anything, she'll be a better semi-carry in the mold of Flayed One. So she loses a bit of DPS ability from fleet, which has no points in it anyway up to level 16 and is a bit more fragile to spells.

She may farm better(I can even reduce the % on Kiss if you feel that's so overpowering, but then you run the risk of it being useless), but she's also much more fragile. She also lost some of her ganking ability, with Dance being changed to an ult level skill and not being quite as spammable.
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:29 pm

late game, your new innate would outshine the current evasion
and i cant only have a dodge chance vs spells, so the triggered evasion would have to stack on top of the attack evasion.

and rending is one of the most powerful melee rules in the game.
not to mention the fluff for it is horrendous

she didnt really lose any ganking ablity, because kiss must have a lower cooldown because its no longer an ult, and it doesnt ahve ult level damage anymore, and dance is now an ult, so it gains ult level damage, but prolly gets a cd increase (the burst damage might prolly end up being the same... ish)
and now she gets a blink+effect in the form of webway asasult (which, TT-wise, is more dark eldar anyway)
dance + kiss get switched for power and cooldowns and effects (dance gets stronger, kiss gets weaker) but she gets a real blink added to her skillset, and nother else really changes in the end (30% > 27%, and oh well, she cant get holosuit, but she still gets 18% triggered evasion)

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:20 pm

There's absolutely no way to separate triggered from normal evasion?

And it's only webway assault because that's the name I gave for the skill. xD It technically incorporates a Phase Field, which is roughly a blink. Anyways, I'll let other people weigh in.
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:21 pm

but harelquins arent known for their use of webway portals in the middle of a fight or similar stufff.

and you cant have triggered evasion only evade vs spells
if your giving her triggered evasion, its gota evade everything

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:27 pm

It's not a webway portal! D:

And what would be a consensus for triggered evasion then? Because I want to reduce the amount of triggered evasion she has while keeping it from being too high.

And there's no logical way to select out spells?

Because I know Psychic Hood can detect whether or not an ability is being used, so there's no way to select that particular ability and nullify its effects?
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:04 pm

its cause psychic hood triggers on spell cast, before any damage is dealt.

and what would it be then gly? Razz
and does the harle really need another blink?

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:15 am

Can't you trigger a delayed effect? If spell is cast, if spell selects/does damage to Harlequin/then nullify?
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:17 am

dots? channeled effects?

how the attack only damage effects work atm is by creating a specific damage event as the attack is started that runs the next time the attacked unit takes damage from its attacker.
this will gimp if it takes damage before the attack lands etc.

if i were to do this with a spell:
not all spells deal damage
not all spells are close to instant damage
not all spells deal one tick of damage
not all spells will deal their damage even remotely close to their cast time.

there are a ton of potential problems and issues regarding spell-only event damage

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:28 pm

Fuegan updated.
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Grass Hopper on Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:57 pm

that actually works alot better.

but fire axe is still conflicting with firepike and tank hunters...

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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

Post by Glycine on Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:36 pm

Not really. xD
Tank Hunters is his all-purpose passive, to be used for any situation.

Besides, Axe makes him a team player by giving his teammates more damage potential. Just because it doesn't fit for a grand total of 10 seconds, doesn't mean that the skill is complete rubbish. xD;

You start with Fire Pike, Ult, and then while they're slowed or in melee range, you can use axe and attack away.
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Re: Eldar Balance Changes

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